Teachers Themselves

Teacher and Trailblazer: A Conversation with Áine Hyland Part 2

• Dublin West Education Support Centre • Season 2 • Episode 6

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Áine Hyland is a name synonymous with educational reform in Ireland and we are honoured to have had her as a guest on the Teachers Themselves podcast. 

Wrapping up Season 2, the conversation between Áine and our host, Ultan Mac Mathúna, was so captivating that we have made it available in two parts. This episode is Part 2 of their conversation so before you listen, go back and enjoy Part 1. 

Join us as Áine recounts her vibrant tapestry of experiences, weaving through the milestones of a storied career that has shaped Irish education. Áine's journey from the grassroots of teaching to her remarkable tenure as an Emeritus Professor of Education and former Vice President of UCC is a narrative steeped in personal and professional triumphs. Her voice carries the legacy of Ireland's educational evolution, a tale of resilience and pioneering spirit against the backdrop of a nation's cultural and societal metamorphosis.

We highly recommend listening to both parts of this conversational episode. Highlighting Áine's impact on the landscape of Irish education, the indelible marks she left serve as a testament to her commitment to shaping the future of learning in Ireland. As we honour Áine Hyland's legacy, we are reminded that her story is not merely a reflection of the past but a beacon guiding us toward the future of education in Ireland.

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Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre produced by Zita Robinson.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Fáilte isteach, and welcome to the Teachers Themselves podcast. I'm your host, Ultan Mac Mathúna. This podcast is brought to you by Dublin West Education Centre. We're located on the grounds of TUD Tallaght, serving and supporting the school communities of West Dublin and beyond. Welcome to season two of Teachers Themselves. Episodes this season will feature informal chats with some of the experienced, dedicated educators who are working in Irish schools and the broader education sector People who are making a big difference to the world of education in Ireland.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Our conversation with Áine Hyland was so captivating that we felt it would do her a disservice to try and cut it short, so we've split our episode into two parts. This episode is part two of our conversation with Áine. If you haven't already, we advise you go back and listen to part one so you don't miss any of her story and can fully appreciate her dedication and contribution to the world of education in Ireland. It's really worth a listen. So throughout your time on it, you were always well able to get your thoughts down to paper many papers published and books written. Your capacity for chronologically setting out how things happen and how things develop, along with the reasons for the developing, has been acute always, and I know as a you know teacher throughout my career. The name Áine Hyland would have always been there.

Áine Hyland:

Well, that's nice to know that. Ultan, only last night I was dreaming I'm afraid I'm a bit of a thorn in the side of the NCCA about curriculum reform. And I was dreaming last night that, because I'm going through, they have just released six new syllabi for consultation. I don't know if you've seen that the three science subjects and business and I was just reading them never give up and I am going to make a submission. I'm probably writing a short paper on my concerns about some of them. But I dreamt last night that I was in at a big teacher conference and I heard somebody, somebody from the NCCA saying ah, she's ancient, she'll not be here much longer, and I thought I'll get my paper written before I die Now funny.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I must ask you about that because we started chatting over that lunch about an article you'd written for the ASTI magazine in relation to a learning outcomes curriculum and how, without a syllabus, it was bound to fail, as has proven to happen in Scotland and other jurisdictions, and I'd urged you to keep on with that message because, you know, I think it's very important for people to hear that. I really believe it for lots of different reasons, but as a practitioner in a school up until two years ago and now working in Dublin West Education Centre, I see it really important for that message to get out there. Thank you. Actually, in reference to your dream, now that you've just brought it up and I have a note here that I must ask you Throughout our conversation here in this podcast- it's been illuminated how you are really in the the function of an elder, nearly in, if you allow me the expression.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Yes, yes, certainly. And you know, in relation to education in ireland and in other societies, over hundreds and hundreds and thousands of years, have elders and they have elders in in societies and in groups to ensure that mistakes aren't repeated and that the wisdom of experience would be applied to current situations. That's why people refer to elders. Why do you think you're being ignored? On that I'm very well with all this experience, a wonderful intellect, proven track record, facts to back you up. Why is it you are at the ncca's bit more?

Áine Hyland:

yeah, somebody asked me that the other day and I I actually. My answer to her was that I'm kind of mystified in a way, because when I started expressing my concern about this design, the NCCA has published a very long paper in December called the technical form of curriculum design. I wrote first about 10 years ago when they initially were going to reform the Leaving Cert and then it didn't happen, and I was very relieved at that time because I thought, well, now they won't use that technical form of design or template, but they did use it for junior cycle and I've just only last week in the Education Matters have you seen the education yearbook that has just been published? It was launched last week and Declan Kennedy and I have an article in it about the design. When we talked to the subject, teacher associations who had a number of them had carried out surveys of their teachers and the ASTI carried out a survey as well.

Áine Hyland:

After the first junior cycle, the full junior cycle, because of COVID there was no junior cycle for two years and then they had the exams and then there was a lot of concern about lack of alignment between the syllabus and the exam paper, and that was exactly what I predicted would happen, because it's almost inevitable that that happens. In fairness to the state examinations commission, if they don't get a clear syllabus outline, how do they know how to examine it? So there there was lack of alignment. And then I thought that once that became apparent and it was becoming apparent about three years ago that the nA would not use that template for the Leaving Cert. But the new subjects have just come out Now they will say that they're not quite as skeletal as the phrase I use, in other words that there's very little meat on the bones. They say that the new, six new syllabi. That's why I'm so busy at the moment reading those six new syllabi.

Áine Hyland:

I don't see there's a huge amount more meat on the bones compared to what other countries have done, especially when the syllabus is externally examined. Looked at three or four other countries, but the three key countries they looked at they are countries like the US where there's no national externally assessed exam, where the assessment is done in the schools. Now, if the assessment is done in the schools by the teachers, they can, to use the NCCA phrase, unpack the learning outcomes themselves. I don't know if you've heard that phrase, but that's a phrase they tend to use, but teachers inevitably will unpack them differently, and that's fine, although I mean maybe if it's not examined externally, it may be fine. It's not always fine, because I mean, why should different schools and different pupils have access to more?

Áine Hyland:

What should we say? In-depth learning? I suppose that's. The concern I have is that, to no fault of their own, some teachers might interpret the learning outcomes at a rather superficial level. Instead of going into greater depth and my argument has always been with the NCCA, you really have to spell out the depth of treatment that you want to give to a subject Is the hanging of a lot of this on the term teacher agency.

Áine Hyland:

It is. It is precisely An excuse to avoid proper planning, that's right.

Áine Hyland:

And it results in, for example, 3,200 primary schools writing their own syllabus Precisely, rather than having a prescribed syllabus, but giving teachers agency to apply that syllabus to what's most appropriate for their classroom, yeah, and I mean that may be OK for primary education because it's not nationally examined but interestingly enough, like the Dromchandra tests, ensure that in the numeracy and literacy area there is a standard to be reached. That's the worry. It's a very valid concern all over the world. How do you get the balance right between setting a standard and not having sufficient advice for the teachers as to where that standard should be, and especially if it's going to be externally examined? I do feel very strongly about that. It's very unfair for both the teachers and the students at an extern and indeed the State Examinations Commission, if they haven't got more detail, especially in the early years.

Áine Hyland:

You see, ironically, as years go on, the textbook will take over. That's what will happen, and there's nothing wrong with that if it's a good textbook. But it'll take a couple of years. You probably noticed at junior cycle that the textbook publishers had to publish revised edition. They had edition one and edition two, and that's what happens, because the first edition the poor textbook writers were unpacking the learning outcomes as best they could. But it wasn't until the first set of exams came up that they realized well, we didn't quite get it right.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

So it's not logical to me, if you're going to have an external of encouraging this huge teacher agency with its creativity. Really, teachers are falling back on next page in the book of course they are, which is not true.

Áine Hyland:

Any of us who have taught for 22 hours a week. You can't. You can't possibly prepare every lesson as they. They say, as an nua, you can't. And I mean like when I was lecturing and you lecture for a maximum of 12 hours a week. Even then, ironically, as you get more and more senior, you could be down to six hours a week if you're a professor. So of course, if you're a professor, even if you have 10 hours a week, you might have a time to create your own syllabus if you like, or certainly to do very detailed lesson planning. But if you have 22 hours a week and you have 25, 28 students in the class and you have copies to correct and forget altogether about your personal life, don't even think about that. And I have to say I continue with my looking at my grandchildren. I'm very impressed by the teachers, young teachers today, how much they put into into marking, copybooks and comments and essays and all of that.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I just wonder, if we're not listening to the Áine Hylands, have we fallen back into? You know that what we referenced at the start of this chat, that we must break the habit of deference to great men and women.

Áine Hyland:

Now that we're in this, well, I don't want anyone to be. I don't want anyone to be in deference to me as a great woman but, in fairness, you know why aren't we listening to elders?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

but look, we'll leave that there, because I think we could go around and around on that one and I only get more frustrated. Do want to touch on another great piece of work both yourself and Bill were involved in, and that was in 74, you set up the Dalkey School Project.

Áine Hyland:

That's correct.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

You know again. Here's yourself and the love of your life. You're working together on an important project. Tell me a little bit about that, people. Now look, we've got community national schools. We've got Educate Together, we've got Gael Scoileanna We've got Catholic schools. We've got Church of Ireland, we've got some Muslim schools. We still have a couple of Jewish schools. Back in 74, it was not thus Could you paint a picture of why you started the Dalkey School project? Sure, sure, yeah.

Áine Hyland:

Well, as you say, even the Gaelscoileanna. There were a small number of Gaelscoileanna then, but they had to be under the patronage of the Catholic Church. As you probably know, the early Gaelscoileanna the department wouldn't envisage anybody, any school, being under any other patronage except church patronage, which was ironic because that's not what the national school system was set up as, as most people know nowadays. So Bill, as I said to you, he didn't respect either church or state and Bill was not a practising in any religion and he was very strong about that. He felt he himself up in the Irish, in Cork and way back in the 20s and early 30s that you know that there was much too much deference to the church, that there was much too much. His mother was a teacher, national school teacher, very good woman, very good Catholic. But that wasn't Bill's way of life. He had studied theology for four years in Maynooth and ironically, I mean, I know a lot of men who left Maynooth, maynooth left the priesthood and remained good Catholic. So it had exactly the opposite effect on Bill the more he studied Catholic theology, the less he believed it and by the time I met him he was a total non-believer.

Áine Hyland:

Now he was very adamant that he wasn't an atheist, that he was an agnostic. He was searching all his life for the truth. Anyway, that was his vision, if you like, his religious vision. So when the children were born he would have preferred them not to have been inculcated, if you like, in any religion. That would have been his preference.

Áine Hyland:

He did believe he has been incorrectly quoted by people as saying he was against religious education. He wasn't at all. He felt we all should understand what religion was about, but that we shouldn't be required to believe it. So he was very strong on that distinction. He felt theology was very important. We all should understand religions, but each individual should be allowed to make up their own mind. Now that's, you wonder at what stage.

Áine Hyland:

But that was his view. So he felt that when our first two girls were born he didn't want them to go to a Catholic school. That was a bit difficult for me because I have a sister, a Loretto nun, and there's a Loretto school here in Dawkey, which is where we have lived for the last 55 years, except for my Cork time. He felt that, marginally, there would be less indoctrination, if you like, in a Church of Ireland school, and at the time there was a very good Church of Ireland school in Dawkey run by an excellent school principal who had no difficulty taking children of any religion or none, and our first two girls went to school there. It was a very good school, very good principal and she, interestingly enough, it was also a pilot school for the new curriculum. So when my daughters started there the new curriculum came in in 71.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It was a little back in 71.

Áine Hyland:

Yeah, it was new, but it was called the new curriculum.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Yes, it was Two orange books.

Áine Hyland:

Yes, the orange books Exactly, and so it was a pilot school for the new curriculum, and so it was very interesting and very exciting for anybody interested in education, as we were. So there were a number of factors. Therefore there was a school that that was just ideal because we had been thinking about education during the 60s before we got married. Then we had the two children, and this school was actually a pilot school for a very different type of curriculum curriculum and they got in and they it was going very, very well. Then I had, seven years later, sonia. My younger daughter was born, but by that stage the school was overcrowded and, interestingly enough, the very same as is now happening.

Áine Hyland:

The department, the then minister, told the manager of the school to restrict numbers and to give first preference to baptised Church of Ireland children, and so this meant that, apart from anything else, our third daughter probably wouldn't get in there, but it wasn't just that there were a number. In fairness, some Protestant families were really annoyed about this. This was also, of course, the same period that the Troubles had broken out again in Northern Ireland, and so 69, 70, 71, that whole period when, I suppose, more liberal people in the South felt separating children by religion isn't helping. So even families who would have been sure that their next children would get in, even they didn't want this segregation to begin. So we hoped. We tried originally to convince Church of Ireland, archbishop of Dublin. There were no boards of management, by the way, until 75, as you probably know. So it was a single manager. The priest or the rector were managers of schools. But around that time as well, the manager wasn't willing to change his mind, and so the group of parents, including ourselves there were about three families particularly who were willing to take on the challenge of saying well, if the Church of Ireland school can't take us and we all want to remain, have our children educated together, let's try and get a separate school.

Áine Hyland:

And I, we understood the system well, you see, remember, I worked in the department, so I understood the concept of patronage and management and trusteeship and all of that. And we will set up a company which will be the patron of the school. And there was St Michael's House had been set up shortly before that for special education, and they were a limited company. So there was a precedent where the department had approved a limited company to be the patron of a school. So it took us four years to break down the antagonism in the department to this. They didn't like it at all.

Áine Hyland:

And now Bill had to be very careful at this stage because he was a civil servant and I was not working full time so I only had lots of other things going on. But I was willing to take on being secretary to this and doing all the letter writing to the department and all of that and I understood the system. But it was a difficult one and I have to say, as I sent you a shortened version of the book, I've written a book about it. There were three or four or five key people. Bill and I were significant because we understood the system, but the people who were willing to go out there publicly challenge church and state tended to be more from the Protestant background and it became a political issue because that was the only way we could finally break down. And it's quite interesting. I learned a lot about change at that stage, managing change, the kind of things that you're probably running courses on. That you know. Okay, civil servants ultimately will do what a minister will say.

Áine Hyland:

So when there was a change of government in 77 and Fianna Fáil came back into government. They had committed to at least not to stop us. They were very, quite rightly saying you have to obey all the rules of the department. You're not going to get additional funding, you're going to get exactly the same treatment as any other school. But that's what we were asking for. We wanted to be a national school like any other school and in 1978, the school opened and Florey Armstrong, who had gone out to Africa to do some work out there she was in a teacher training college.

Áine Hyland:

She came back. She was the same woman who had been principal in St Patrick's in Dalkey and so that was crucial because it was tough, I suppose, on the Church of Ireland school at the time. But they wanted numbers to fall anyway. So a lot of the pupils about 30 or 40 of them left that school and went to the Dalkey School project and we started with 92 children, which was a very big. When I look now they start with very small numbers a lot of the time. But we had the department said we had to have a viable number for two or three teachers before they would give us recognition.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

So you got the docket school project up and growing off the ground from the ground up and then, of course, like a lot of these things, it started to grow legs and educate together. That's right. Yeah, that's right yeah, that's right.

Áine Hyland:

So now again our issues, our problems. In fairness to the churches, and in fairness to the catholic church, there were always individual managers. I mean sister eileen randall's, whom you probably remember, a formidable woman who was a head of the catholic primary school manager association. She was quite helpful on technical issues to us, you know, and we had issues about. Well, there were all kinds of rules. You know that we wouldn't be familiar with.

Áine Hyland:

It was the department, I suppose, worried more about us breaking into the system than the churches in a strange way, except for some very conservative church people on all sides. But in general, once we made it clear that there was no question and we were being accused of trying to get rid of the church in Irish education, that was never the issue. The issue was to get one school going which was not under church management, and once that happened a number of other groups of parents in other areas became interested and in 1984, an umbrella body called Educate Together was set up and I was very active in that as well. But they were all things we did, obviously free, gratis and for nothing in our spare time. You know they were not ever paid work or anything like that at that time.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

But I learned an awful lot from that. The thing that's rubbing through a lot of this, Áine, you know from the start is an ability to keep going. That's right, when you thought what you're doing was right.

Áine Hyland:

Exactly.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

An ability to stand by what you believe is right, which requires, I suppose, clarity around what you do believe and what's important to you in the first instance, but then the backbone to stay with it, because you know, like somebody said I don't know who it was, but I came across it recently it's not the one big thing that will win, it's the consistency and never giving up that will win in the end. And I suppose that does run right through your life, and I think of all these achievements and all the hurdles you had to climb over that make our education system what it is today.

Áine Hyland:

I suppose the other thing, yeah, the interesting thing about the Dalkey School project and it was an important lesson for me the difference between being an outsider and an insider, the changes for the investment in education and all of that. We were insiders. You see, remember, if you think about, although Bill questioned the status quo a lot, he was working from an insider's position, you know. But when you're an outsider, I still, you know, you feel it's very hard to hold onto your convictions when so many people, especially people that you otherwise respect and admire, people, especially people that you otherwise respect and admire, think that you are wrong. And I suppose that's why, like even now with the NCCA, I keep asking myself well, am I wrong? And I spend hours reading other countries, thinking, am I getting it wrong? Because I wouldn't want to be pushing something and find it was the wrong thing. As you say, you have the conviction, but you also want to believe and know that what you're doing is morally right and technically right, if you like as well.

Áine Hyland:

I never had any problem with the Dalkey School project and Educate Together, because with the troubles in the world generally and the troubles that were exacerbated by religion in different parts of the world, as we see again in the awful Gaza and Israel situation, you have to believe that bringing people together has to be better than separating them.

Áine Hyland:

So I never had a difficulty with that. But when you're coming into something more technical, like a design of curriculum or something, you have to keep making sure that you're not making a mistake and hoping that you have an ally. But I have been fortunate with some of my colleagues in University College Cork. I had two or three colleagues there who were, and I'm sure we've all found this in our school situation. Of course you're not going to get 100% support from your colleagues, but even to have a small number of people who have come to the same conclusion because they have done the background work and realize where you're coming from, bounce ideas off them and have a very open relationship and be willing to listen and to have them if they say no, you're wrong about that, not to hang on to it if it's wrong. So it's all of that.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I suppose what you're referring to there. I suppose to question yourself as a healthy thing. Do I have it right? Exactly. And once you've done the homework, and once you've done the heavy lifting on that to say, yeah look, I've done my research, I am right here, then your moral purpose behind the fight for that for want of a better word is strengthened because you have the facts to back it up. You've questioned yourself, which is always a good place to start. Anyway, that old thing I think you referenced it in your paper, de Valera look into your heart and see what's right for Ireland.

Áine Hyland:

That's all, but you need the evidence as well.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Exactly, it has to be evidence-based. Just look into the heart, really, isn't it? And I think I suppose the longer you live, the more you realise that it has to be evidence-based, because we all make mistakes.

Áine Hyland:

Yeah, I think that is very important to be always willing to say I was wrong. See, that's what worries me a little bit. With authority. I mean, I wouldn't be anything like Bill was in terms of challenging almost all authority. I'm not that kind of a person at all. I'm a much more conventional person than Bill ever was. But at the same time you have to be willing to say I was wrong. And sometimes I worry that if either the department or a civil servant takes a position or a minister takes a position that they're not willing to let it go when all the evidence is beginning to show it's not working, you know, whether it's in education or in health or in any other department, you know to be willing to say this is not working and put your hands up and say look, sorry, we got it wrong.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

When they're going down the wrong path. Yeah exactly Strong enough to say turn around, we've got this wrong. That's right, Exactly. There's great freedom when you say do you know what? I've got that wrong, thank you.

Áine Hyland:

That's right. That's exactly it. You know it's like a weight off your shoulders, as you probably have seen when you know it's an unusual enough ability among people at the top I'm thinking internationally now, looking at leaders in various countries, and that's what leads to wars as well that they won't let go. You know that they just won't let go, even though you know we're looking at netanyahu or we're looking at putin and they're persisting in a war. Why, you know.

Áine Hyland:

But we have to see that in a smaller way in our own worlds. You know that people should be ready and willing to drop what they thought initially was the right thing to do if it's proven not to be the right thing to do, indeed, in all our relationships.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Even Now, we're drawn to a close on this, áine, but there's a couple of questions I'd like to ask you. First, there's one here. We ask each interviewee on the podcast to give us a question. We'll ask anonymously to somebody else and the one that's pulled out of the hat for you, anya, it's a tricky enough one now. What subject would you cut from the school day and why? So? What subject would you cut from the school day and why? I don't know who sent it in and which of our interviewees. Well, that's a tricky one, so gun to the head. You have to cut one of them. What would you cut?

Áine Hyland:

oh, that's a tricky one. So gun to the head, you have to cut one of them. What would you cut? Oh, that is a tricky one. Yeah, because I'm thinking at primary level, I certainly. I mean, I'm very much in favour of the arts, I'm very much in favour of Irish language. My regret myself is that I never did any science subject, so I wouldn't be cutting science subjects out. And music is one of my loves, so I wouldn't be cutting science subjects out. And music is one of my loves, so I wouldn't be cutting music out. So what subject? What's?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

left. I think it's an impossible question.

Áine Hyland:

I think it's an impossible question because history, I think, is very important again.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It's always a question, I have to say it's always a question I wish on RTE or News Talk or whatever, when somebody said they should do this in the schools, I'd love somebody them say what do you want them to take out? Because that pail is full. You know, what do you want removed?

Áine Hyland:

No one's anything removed, yeah I must say, the tendency for the public at large to expect the school to take on everything. I'm not saying we should cut it out, but I was a bit disconcerted to find so many hours going to well-being. Now, that may sound a strange thing to say, but well-being to me is part and parcel of everything, and to have taken it out into a category of its own it's called well-being, I think, in I think the phrase that the minister is using. So I guess at this point in time, until I see that it was necessary to take it out as a separate heading out of the curriculum and give it so many hours in second level education where to me and everything I have ever seen with teachers, the teachers especially at primary level I mean they are are so, so focused on their each individual child that well-being is encompassed entirely in their relationship with the child. So to think of it separately, I mean, maybe that might be my age I just find it difficult to think of well-being as a semi.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Actually, that's one that comes up a lot with teachers that visit our centre here.

Áine Hyland:

Is that right?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Yeah, there's an overprescription of well-being and number one. I don't think there is confusion around what it means.

Áine Hyland:

Yeah, probably that's actually.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I'm not very familiar with there is also, you know, too much prescription. It's just the anecdotal feedback.

Áine Hyland:

Yes, yes.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

That there's too much prescription around hours. There's a lot being done already and, as you say, we're lucky in that the holistic approach to education, particularly in the primary sector, but I think also in a good part of the school, the fairness to them, they really are attuned to the pupils or the children in their care and their responsibility to their well-being, for want of a better word. But look, that's probably something that's ahead of us. One of the things that drew me to you straight away was your red hair, Áine.

Áine Hyland:

It's not really red, it's blondie red.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It's blondie red. Well, I tell you this it's better than the grey that I have. So it was red. I mentioned at the start the bit of divilment. Where do you get the bit of devilment, or what kind of things bring you a smile nowadays? What makes you, what brings the twinkle to your eye on you?

Áine Hyland:

Well, I, I'm very lucky. I think I've had a fantastic life. I really like. Once I got into teaching, and particularly once I got into third level, it was like being paid for my hobby, you know, that's how I felt about it. I mean, similarly, I mean I always liked working, I always liked my work, but then I was always in education in some form or other. Yeah, what brings the twinkle to my eye? I mean I am fundamentally a happy person, thank God, which is great, and I've been very fortunate in my life and I managed to overcome.

Áine Hyland:

I have a grandson with autism, which has been a new experience for me because I didn't, you know, I've helped with him over the last 18 years and that's been a very sobering experience.

Áine Hyland:

I suppose, in a way that in spite of all my years in the education system, I hadn't fully realized what a challenge a young man with autism can be in a family, you know. So I get great enjoyment out of him as well. That's the other thing. I mean it's fascinating how somebody like him can see life so differently and pull me up on the things I would automatically say he or she that driver, in fact. Unfortunately, I often say, oh, look at that driver. He's pulling out in front of me and he'd say to me you can't say he, you must say they. So there are all these new things that young people take for granted, that are new in my life, and I suppose that keeps me young as well. It keeps me interested and keeps me very much in touch, because I have six grandsons, so three daughters and six grandsons. So I had no boys of my own and now I have no female grandchildren.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Well, isn't it funny how life throws things at us.

Áine Hyland:

It is indeed. It is indeed.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Well, áine, look. Can I just sum up by saying and I think maybe you know, for me education always boils down to one word and that's love. And I think that's running right through your life and perhaps why you had such a passion for education. You know your loving parents, your obvious great love for Bill, your love for your children and your grandchildren and your love for all matters education and you said at the start, you know, it's in your DNA and that's very, very obvious. Ireland is a better country for having you in it. Definitely, our education system is a better system for having you in it, and I hope that they listen to you because you have lots and lots to say. Áine, go raibh míle, míle maith agat.

Áine Hyland:

Go raibh maith agat, slán Slán.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

This episode closes out season 2 of Teachers Themselves. We hope you've enjoyed the conversations. Keep an eye out for Season 3 and, in the meantime, go back and listen to previous episodes you may have missed. As always, don't forget to hit that bell, like and subscribe, leave us a review and share it with colleagues and friends. We want to hear from you. Your feedback informs the show. You can follow us across social media channels Instagram, twitter, linkedin, facebook Links are in the show notes. If you have any thoughts on today's episode or suggestions for future topics, email Zita here at zrobinson@ dwec. ie. That's z-r-o-b-i-n-s-o-n at dwec. ie. Oh, and, as always, don't forget to book your CPD wwwdwec. ie. Thanks again. Have a great week. Slán tamail, Teachers Themselves, is a DWEC original Produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre. Thank you.

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Ultan Mac Mathúna

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