Teachers Themselves

Áine Lynch: Shaping Education Through Parent-Teacher Partnerships

• Dublin West Education Support Centre • Season 2 • Episode 3

Share episode

Send us a text

This episode recounts the extraordinary journey of Áine Lynch. She opens up about her passionate pursuit of strengthening partnerships between schools and parents, drawing from her own experience as an early school leaver who later became the CEO of the National Parents' Council. Áine's story is a testament to the non-linear paths that can lead to profound influence and change.


Throughout our conversation, we uncover the layers of complexity within the parent-teacher dynamic, emphasizing the importance of collaboration in fostering children's well-being and academic success. Áine provides valuable insight into the challenges educators face in forging these essential connections, and the transformative potential of active listening—a skill we often take for granted. She shares strategies to fortify these relationships and the supportive role of the National Parents Council in not only helping parents but also in empowering teachers to navigate the nuances of family engagement.


Áine's personal anecdotes and professional expertise culminate in a powerful discussion about the definition of success and the courage it takes to challenge conventional educational paradigms. We explore the importance of inclusion and the need for an education system that caters to diverse learning styles, underscoring the value of kinetic learning opportunities. With Áine's inspiring accounts and the broader implications for educational reform, this episode is an invigorating call to action, reminding us of the resilience necessary to steer through academic differences and make a lasting impact on the lives of children.


Don’t forget to like and subscribe, leave us a review and share it with colleagues and friends! Your feedback informs the show.

You can follow us across our social media channels –

Instagram

Twitter

LinkedIn

Facebook

If you have any thoughts on our episodes, or suggestions for future topics, email Zita at zrobinson@dwec.ie
Or take a minute to give us your feedback: Listener Feedback

Oh – and don’t forget to book that CPD – dwec.ie

Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre produced by Zita Robinson.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I'm your host, Ultan Mac Mathúna. This podcast is brought to you by Dublin West Education Centre. We're located on the grounds of TU D Tallaght, serving and supporting the school communities of West Dublin and beyond. Welcome to season two of Teachers Themselves. Episodes this season will feature informal chats with some of the experienced dedicated educators who are working in Irish schools and the broader education sector People who are making a big difference to the world of education in Ireland.

Áine Lynch:

Working towards trying to make life a better place for kids is really important to me.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

You're very welcome, Áine Lynch. Anja qualified as a nurse and then completed an others degree in behavioural sciences. Anja worked for two years in the area of child psychiatry and then worked with the ISPCC as the Childline Manager and Director of Services. In August 2007, Anja was appointed CEO of the National Parents' Council. Primary Anja was appointed to the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment and the National Council for Special Education by the Minister of Education and Skills and formally served on the Board of the Children's Rights Alliance and the Teaching Council.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

In December 2017, Anja was awarded a Master's in Executive Leadership by the University of Ulster. Anja believes all decisions in schools should be child-centred and that this is best achieved by fostering positive relationships between parents and schools and by ensuring the voice of the child is included. In 2018, Anja oversaw the expansion of NPCs remit into providing services and support for parents of children in early years of education. So, Anja, that is quite a list of achievements and appointments and awards and workload, but I suppose the first thing people are wondering about Anja is who is Anja Lynch? So I'm going to start with the obvious one. Your name sounds very Irish, Anja, but when you speak it sounds English. Can you explain that to me please?

Áine Lynch:

Well, first of all, I'm very proud of the fact that I've kept my English accent over all these years because I've been in Ireland for, I think, 26, 27 years now, something along that side. So, yes, I was born and educated and grew up in England and then, after my degree in Behavioural Sciences that you refer to, I came over to Ireland for a six-week holiday and it was really to put off joining the workforce for real and it was the time that the Celtic Tiger was just starting its roar and it was the time also that Ryanair was really getting going. So, the combination between the job opportunities here and the ease of getting home and the cuteness of getting home, I kind of stayed longer than the six weeks. I never anticipated it staying this long, but you get a house, you get a group of friends, you get a job and it doesn't really matter when you're in the UK or Ireland, because they're so close that I'm just still here on holiday.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Basically, very good and your name Aunga, does that have English?

Áine Lynch:

name, though no, my father's from Wexford in. Of course he's in Wexford.

Áine Lynch:

I've been in England very long at the time that I was born. He'd probably only been in England maybe four years, so he didn't think anything of calling his daughter Aunga. It was a very common name to him. Now I was going to be called Siobhan. We lived in Leicester at the time I was going to be called Siobhan. There was a family down the road who called them your daughter Siobhan, the week before I was born, so they felt that it'd be too confusing. The fact that we moved away six months later it would make no difference at all is beside the point, but that's how I got Aunga, which was a very difficult name to grow up in England with.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Really, is it?

Áine Lynch:

awkward for them to say they can say it until you spell it for them and then you'll never get called Aunga again, and it was a really tough name to grow up with.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Well, I worked for a year in London and my name is Ultan Mac Mathúna Imagine what they'd have said. But anyway, the one disappointing thing I know about you and England is that you're a Manchester United supporter.

Áine Lynch:

That's it. I'm very proud Manchester United supporter, can I say?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Who's your favourite and can I say, at least I might?

Áine Lynch:

date the podcast now, but I was at the match on St Stephen's Day against Aston Villa where we beat them.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Well done to you, is it?

Áine Lynch:

3-2? It has to be 2-0 down.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Famous United player.

Áine Lynch:

Or current Current, I don't know. Ever Probably I'm sticking with Rashford even though he's going through a really difficult few years.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

But it's also conscience. Yeah, that's a good thing and your best or your favourite United player of all times, Marques.

Áine Lynch:

Marques. Yeah, why Marques? He just used to get stuck in. Yeah, he just gets stuck in. It's Marques. Okay, very good.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

We've done the classic Irish thing. Have you placed now? Okay, what are you happiest doing what makes you happy?

Áine Lynch:

Professionally or personally, you tell me. Okay. Well, professionally, I think one of the things if you've read out my career a little bit there I started in nursing. In nursing I did my general nursing and then found my place in pediatric nursing. Then I went back to kind of a more broader subject of behavioural sciences which was much more based around adult psychology and anthropology and sociology, and then I moved to Ireland and started working in child and adolescent psychiatry and then I went to ISBCC and now I'm in National Parents Council. So I think what goes through all that is children and I think working towards trying to make life a better place for kids is really important to me. I don't think I consciously think that every day, but if you look at my career pathway, I think it is something that I keep gravitating towards.

Áine Lynch:

I was an early school leaver in England and I never thought I'd be in the area of education. I remember when I applied for this post I thought what am I doing? That's just not my area of education at all, and I thought I'll take the job for a couple of years and then I'll go on to something bigger and better. And then the crash happened. So a lot of my decisions have happened because of the Celtic Tiger and then the crash. And when the crash happened there were no jobs. So I thought, well, I have to stay here now and make it mine. And it was during that kind of time and that first couple of years I realised actually I had to get all the rest of the work up and doing.

Áine Lynch:

Education is absolutely pivotal to everything, whether it's mental health, whether it's equity and equality, whether it's just all children having the right opportunities to become the best that they can become and want to become. It actually is fundamental, and I think they're my own experience of education which, I have to say, I was in a great school with great teachers. Just that whole sitting in a class just didn't suit me, but it really, I suppose, made me become very passionate about something that I'd always even though I kept going back to it with masters and degrees and everything like that I'd always kind of thought was not for me. And it was actually not until I came into this role that I thought the fact that I thought it was not for me is a problem, and the fact that there's children there that maybe think it's not for them it's a problem as well.

Áine Lynch:

So I think, that's probably my happy place is trying to work around those issues professionally. My happy place personally is just another plug for man United, really.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Would you be a leader or with? A new visa.

Áine Lynch:

I read a lot. I was always one of those people who like bookshelves and I was very surprised that I became a Kindle person. That I never would. I always thought that that was like not for me. And then when I go on holiday, half my suitcase used to be books and then there became baggage limits and everything like that. So I thought I have to get a Kindle for holidays. I hate picking up a book. Now I'm a complete Kindle. But I'm also again moved.

Áine Lynch:

Somewhere I never thought I'd go is audio books, because I've got a dog. The dog needs walking and the audio book means that he's got very short legs now because he gets walked a lot. Yeah, I think and actually I think it's a really interesting question beyond just reading, because I was that kind of, I suppose, luddite. If you want to say is in a book is a bucket as a spine that sits on a shelf, and there's nothing as good as this. What opened up to me when I went to Kindles and audio books and podcasts, as we're doing now, if I had stayed where I was with the book is a book and it's on a shelf, I'd missed out on so much.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

But do you still like visiting bookshelves?

Áine Lynch:

I love visiting bookshelves, and do you know what I do? I look at a book, I look at the back cover. I'd open it a couple of pages and see whether I like it and I'll take a picture of it and I'll go to Kindle and find it, because I'll never remember the name of it.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Now I do take the picture, very, very nobody can see me doing it, but yeah, but I do?

Áine Lynch:

I hate to see bookshops go. What are you reading at the moment? Because it's on a Kindle, it's very difficult to remember, but it's something around cutting the stone or something like that.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Oh, about the doctrine of the Sabbath.

Áine Lynch:

Yes, it's very interesting, it's very good, it's very cool.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

A friend of mine recommended me and I'm the one who's working with me and Dundlam recommended that to me and it's fantastic.

Áine Lynch:

Yes, it's really enjoyable. I'm kind of three quarters of the way through and it takes lots of twists and turns.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

To make you want to visit Abyssalton by Woodbridge. We're getting a broad picture of who you are. What makes you tick. I think that intrinsic pull towards making life better for children is a pattern in your life and how you balance that. So you work with the NPC and people are very familiar with it and, in fairness, people are very familiar with you. You're on the news a fair bit and I think actually your accent, because you go oh, there's someone you're lynching against so you're easily identifiable and people get you on.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Why do you think the RTE and all these people ask you to come on?

Áine Lynch:

Well, I mean I think you know the fact that National Parents Council represents the voice of parents. I think in the media over the years that has become quite important in the educational debates, which I think is really good. I mean before my time that had started happening and hopefully we've built on that over the years. I also think National Parents Council and me with the National Parents Council, we do our very best to speak straightforward and simply so we don't try and we're talking to parents when we're talking. So I think the average person in the public understand the points we're making and I think it's really important that the parent and through the parent, the student, the child's voice is part of the conversation that's happening publicly. So I think there has been a commitment from the media to do that and I think then we're recognized, particularly in education, as the group that do that and I suppose me as the CEO is seeing the first bit.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Do you think over the years you've forged relationships with the other stakeholders in education whereby the parents voice is seen as a collaborative one?

Áine Lynch:

I think we're getting there. I think it can depend on what topic or what issue we're talking about, can depend on what's happening generally in the world. I think during COVID it was very difficult to get the parents voice out there, exceptionally difficult to get the parents voice out there. But I think certainly I mean I kind of shuddered when you said started the job in 2007, although I know that it still seems like it wasn't that long ago. I think we've definitely moved on since then. I mean, I think the fact that you're interviewing me here, alton, as part of the podcast series is seeing the relevance of parent voice. I think everybody understands the relevance of it. Everybody understands the research of why it's so important in education for children. But I think the doing of it is just really difficult sometimes and I think that can bring up different reactions in different situations. So can you give me for?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

instance of that when you say the doing of what you mean.

Áine Lynch:

So I think let's take it from the ground up. In a school Everybody can understand that it's really important that you involve parents in children's education. I mean some people don't. I mean it's not Disneyland here. Some people don't believe that, but it's acceptable to say that now. But the majority of people working in the school system teachers most importantly understand the importance of working with parents and the outcome difference that makes for children. But if you look at the teacher education programs, if you look at the CPD for teachers, there isn't a whole lot in helping teachers do that.

Áine Lynch:

So you're talking about really quite complex relationships. You're talking about, for a start, when a child starts school. This is the first time the parents have had to let go of their children. Without any decision on that. They have to by law let go of their children. Now that's often a very happy time and everything, but it is still a nuance in a parenting relationship with their child. They're kind of handing their children over for the first time to people they don't necessarily know.

Áine Lynch:

So you're talking about a complex relationship from the beginning. And then you know, throughout that child's educational career, there might be times where there's something happening in the school that's not good or the child's just not happy or not getting on well with something, so that further complicates that relationship. And teachers are given very little support in how to manage those relationships, very little support. So I think as a teacher you could have all the will in the world thinking I know, I want to work with these parents, but you've got very little support as a teacher on how to do that and how to do that in complex situations. Whether it's a child who doesn't like school and attendance is a problem, whether it's a child who's getting into trouble in school, those kind of conversations with parents are very sensitive and difficult and I just don't think teachers get enough support in them. So as much as you might want to, the reality of actually doing it can be difficult.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

That makes sense. If there was one thing you'd like principals and teachers to know about the National Parents Council, what would it be? I wish they all knew this.

Áine Lynch:

I mean, I think a lot do know, but I think one thing I'd like all of them to know is that our services are there for teachers and principals as well. Our helpline is there for teachers and principals. We get lots of teachers and principals ringing us, but for us, the helpline is obviously there for parents. But if one parent rings us, we have the potential to help and support one parent. If a teacher or principal rings us, we have the potential to support many more parents and therefore many more children.

Áine Lynch:

All of our services are available to teachers and principals. And I think the other thing is a lot of our services so some of our training it's like anti-bullying, it's internet safety, it's mental health that are all there for parents to support their children. Well, teachers are in that kind of parental role in the school, so a lot of our training can be very supportive for teachers as well, and they're always very welcome to attend, whether it's happening in their school or whether we're doing online courses, and we often do get teachers attending in their capacity as a teacher. But I suppose I love all teachers and principals to know that that resource is for them because ultimately, all our supports are to try and make school a better and happier place for children. So the adults in that child's life are essential to that being the case.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Yeah, I suppose, when you think about now, kind of look back at the broader context of that too, when Dr Conceptor Connerty developed the homeschool community liaison as it was at the time program and she saw that channel for success whereby the home and the school are working together.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

But people say, oh, the home or the school, I always think it's the parent and the teacher At the end of the day and you put your finger on there, that crucial relationship between parent and teacher, and when that relationship is a good one, life is easier for everybody the parent and the teacher and ultimately obviously the child. But as somebody who worked in schools all my life, I would have said I was happiest when all those relationships were good. So we'd always ask them to go out of our way to make parents feel that they mattered, that nobody was taken for granted and that our door was open, and it wasn't as if there was a huge amount of parents through the door. It was for them to know that that's there for them and their child and that created a culture and an atmosphere where actually we were all happier as well. The staff had a very positive experience of a nicer life because it was a nicer place to come to work.

Áine Lynch:

And they gain confidence in working with parents, if it's positive. But I think the other thing is children. We know that children are happier when the adults in their life are connected. So if school and home is very separate then that makes it very difficult for children because they don't know where those relationship boundaries are. And particularly if you've got a situation where a school is saying one thing to a child and then the child goes home and says it and the parents go oh well, that's rubbish in all that. Now that's likely to happen a lot if the school and the parents aren't talking and proper communication not parents being told, but parents having a two-way communication with the school and understanding what's happening in the school and why it's happening. And then you get parents who may disagree but still row in behind the school because they understand that actually for their child, that the adults in their lives have to connect and have to know each other, get on with each other and support the child in what they're doing. So that can't happen when schools and parents aren't talking.

Áine Lynch:

And I think that piece about it goes onto a wider subject of schools nearly being given every social ill to cure at the moment and everything kind of building in there for schools. But if the schools are not working with parents on those issues, then these are kind of big social ills like sex education, they're like drugs and alcohol. They're all the big ticket items and really it doesn't matter what a school does, because if they go home and don't get the same message, the messaging in home has been proven in research over and over again from school messaging all the time because it's their family and we all know how we feel about the values in our family. So we have to start matching those conversations between home and school if we really want to make generational differences for children. Schools can't fix those on their own and I think schools know that. But then it goes back to well how a school supported to work better with parents and that support isn't as strong as it could be currently. I don't think.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I think you said that really really well, anja. There's absolutely nothing there that could disagree with people who want it Wow.

Áine Lynch:

Wow. I'll get you on to man United, yeah, yeah.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

And all that to move away from the heavier stuff for a moment and to go back to Anja Lynch what would you like to put more of into your working day? Because I know we've had dealings with the Dublin West and National Parents Council and Dublin West is Anja Lynch, and I know you're an incredibly busy person and oftentimes when you're involved in work, where your work lands in the happiness and the improvement for lives for children, it's not so easy to say I'll do that after the point ever. Sometimes we need more discipline. So if you had bonds of discipline, what would you like more of in your working day?

Áine Lynch:

One of the things that's really good about the National Parents Council is we've got a really good team of staff. Really good team of staff and I'm not just saying that because I'm on a podcast. It's been developed over years. Everybody's involved in lots of different things, so people might have their own role, but we really delegate it out and particularly leadership in the organization is delegated around as well. I know everybody hears me and thinks well, that's one leader. When you think about our workload within the organization, we have multiple leaders in it at different levels, so it really does allow me to do a lot of the things that I want to spend time on, because I have such a good team working with me around, so I don't have to do everything. I think one of the problems is when you're in a role like mine is sometimes you feel you have to do everything, but I think when you've got a really good team around you, you can concentrate on the things that are important for the leadership of the organization to be doing At the moment.

Áine Lynch:

As a lot of people are aware, we've just extended our remit last year into post-primary as well, which is too recent to have been on that bio. Really, I think that for us as an organization is really exciting because I know we're in education but predominantly we're in parents. We're not really we're in parents connected to education, but our job is around supporting and advocating for parents. And now a parent can come into contact with us when their child is in early years and they'll stay with the same organization all the way until they leave post-primary. And I think our ability to engage and support parents then with that length of time that they're with us is huge.

Áine Lynch:

And so I think now what I want to do because this is a recent thing is build that, build that capacity of engaging a parent from early years and keeping them with us right the way through to the end of their child's schooling at post-primary and develop the advocacy that those parents have.

Áine Lynch:

And I think it really kind of almost blows things apart a little bit because once we've struggled before to have the primary parents voice and early years parents voice reflected in things like junior cycle and leaving certificate, because it's their children that will be doing it, it can be a little bit kind of against the waves a little bit on that because people are saying well, why is national parents class a primary? So I think about that, whereas now when we do a consultation, we can consult all of our parents about whatever it is, and that means post-primary parents can say well, I never liked that when my child was in primary and I feel like I'd like to say that also, primary parents and early in parents can talk about leaving certificate, junior certificate, transition year, all of these things. So I think the streamline of that we really want to build on and I think that's what I'd like to spend time on over the next year or two.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Okay, what is, do you think, the one thing that parents need most from schools?

Áine Lynch:

Listen.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

The elaboration there.

Áine Lynch:

I think it's no more than in any term of life. Just before I came here right, I rang a complaint line because I'd ordered something that hasn't arrived and the place I've ordered it from sent it through UPS. So they're saying it's UPS's problem. I wasn't listened to at all. In fact I was talked over at times when I was trying to explain. The frustration of not being listened to is immense.

Áine Lynch:

The value of listening means you feel one that you've been heard and understood and you've been taken account of. It's a really powerful tool. If you want to work in partnership with somebody which hopefully schools do want to work in partnership with parents the first line of that partnership has to be parents feeling listened to. I think that is the most fundamental point. You can't build relationships. We often talk about building relationships but we've skipped the listening bit. You can't build relationships unless you really do listen and that's that active listening. It's not the jumping in, it's not trying to work out what you're going to say back to them while they're speaking to you. It's all of those active listening skills. I think when a parent feels listened to, it completely changes the relationship. It doesn't matter what the complaint is. Do you know if they're coming in and they're absolutely fuming, the fact that they'll feel heard, even if there isn't anything you can do about it, makes a complete difference to the relationship. Listening, for me, is just fundamental to relationships in and out of schools.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I do believe it's very hard to be upskilling in listening.

Áine Lynch:

Yes, I would.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

We ran a search that lengthened and breathed the country in. The first, Zita came up with Zita Robinson, who works here in the centre. Came up with a person who did a session on listening, but it's a key one.

Áine Lynch:

It's key for everything, not to mind teaching. It's key for the whole.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It's key for everything. Everything, but how to listen, yeah? It wouldn't be greater now.

Áine Lynch:

None of us agree. It's absolutely.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I'm looking for a course for myself I believe there's no code and get it. As you see, it's turned up Trumpsville one and we'll run it again, but it is a tricky skill and I referred a little bit, especially when you're busy.

Áine Lynch:

Yes, yeah, and it's even more important when you're busy.

Áine Lynch:

But I referred a minute ago to some of the training courses we have that we do in schools but we also have them online and all of them have a component of active listening skills in it, because we just see it's such an important part for a parent with their child. So we're trying to promote those listening skills, the paraphrasing, the summarising, all of those skills open and closed questions, all of these pieces how to be non-judgmental, the unconscious bias you might have, all of those things. So we're trying to do that in little bits throughout, like reinforcing them throughout our training courses. So when parents have come to a number of our training courses, they've heard about the listening skills and the importance of it, because it's absolutely fundamental for a parent in building their relationship with a child. It's a fact that they listen to them and hear them and understand them. But it's also fundamental to a teacher with their peers, with their children in their class and with their parents.

Áine Lynch:

And we also do an education program for initial teacher education, but also here in Dublin West for teachers who are qualified around working with parents effectively, and there's a big chunk in the middle of that course as well. That's active listening skills. So it's an eight-week course and two of those weeks are around active listening skills. So it might be difficult to find a course, but we do do some Good on you.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Good on you. Is there enough in the initial teacher education courses around relationships with parents and families? Because I think sometimes it's maybe easier for schools, for principals and teachers to understand that it's a family and you're impacting a family member who is asked your favorite thing about your job as a principal and I was saying the opportunity to help families and that family unit is a sacred area and you're in a position to help a whole family. Is there enough in teacher education for to help teachers understand that, and particularly the financial authority in initial teacher education are younger people and possibly in families of their own. They're in a family for sure. It must be trickier for them to understand that and you were talking earlier about you know, when apparently it's a child, offer the first day to these strangers. You know, I don't think they can ever. Until you do it you can never understand it, but definitely there's a space there for them to learn how to understand families from a parent's perspective and the place you have in those family conversations and the impact you have on that family. You know, a brother of mine once said you don't know the value of a good teacher until your child is a bad one and he says he's really in his family. It's not the kitchen table. Go home.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

What did you do today in school and what did your teacher say? And you know, and it's a huge part of it and it's the one about to the school tour, and you know teachers put so much work into making school tours great for the children and learning experience and fun at the same time. And the first question oh, I don't know. So we just sit beside on the bus. You know it's little things like that about families, but they're very, very important. Or who do you play with on the art? And these are key things. So I think when a teacher can understand that from the start of their career, it's a big help for them. And I wonder is there enough in that? I know in my day there was zero, I know there's more now. I know NPC does work out there. What do you think about that?

Áine Lynch:

I think empathy is one of the things you're talking about there and that's really key. But I think on a broader picture I've had conversations with a number of the teacher education colleges around this Teaching is a practical job and you need really good practical skills and I think that's lacking in the teacher education program. It's left to placement all the time, and placement is great and it's really important and you get to practice all the theory. But at some point some of the practical stuff that you practice on your placement, you need some foundation, practical foundation to so active listening skills, for instance. Now, teaching is all about communication. That's fundamental to teaching is communication. It's not about knowledge, and it's even less about knowledge now than it ever used to be because we've got access to so much of it.

Áine Lynch:

But the fundamental, key skill to teaching is communication. Whether you're communicating with your peers and other teachers, your principal, whether you're communicating with the children in your classroom or whether you're communicating with parents, it's fundamental to it. When we do our teacher education programs in only two educational colleges in Ireland, it's the thing that students say that's going to help me everywhere in my teaching. It's going to help me with the kids in the classroom. It's going to help me with my peers, of course it's going to help me with parents.

Áine Lynch:

But these life skills of listening, active listening, communication, managing challenging conversations, the theory, but their practical base theory to that, and if you get that throughout your teacher education program in a practical sense it's not a lecture theater but in a practical way that will help with families, it'll help with parents, it'll help with children, it'll help with peers, there'll be a lot less needed then around the well, what are the special components about parents? If you're a good communicator, you can listen to any parent talk about anything and you'll want to hear more because you'll understand that actually, the more I understand Alton, the better I'll be able to support Alton's child in my classroom. So I need to listen and not have all the answers and not be the expert on his child, because we're both experts on the child.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Or none of us are.

Áine Lynch:

Or none of us. The child is the expert.

Áine Lynch:

So that brings in the child's voice as well, which obviously is critical. But sometimes we, you know, we're even saying now to teachers now you have to listen to children as well and what they want and what they need and what they think about their learning and teaching. But again, we're not actually giving them skills. And if you look at the Department of Education at the moment, who's setting up which is really innovative and great is the children participation unit in the department. But they've got Laura Lundy giving them advice. They've got a working group on it. Everybody's kind of pulling together to try and get this right. Then you go to a teacher in a class and say you've got to listen to your students' voice more in their learning and assessment for learning and all of these kinds of things. And yes, there's some CPD available. But fundamentally that's not the way we're educating teachers coming up in a practical way. The theory is great, the theory is great, but I think they need more practical experience during their teacher education program, because I could get up and lecture somebody on listening skills and have done, but what they learn most is when they're sitting on, see each other and role playing scenarios. That's where they learn it, where you stop it and say how could we do this differently? Where they've got the license to try that out and get it wrong without an actual parent in front of them or a child in front of them. So these are the practical pieces that I think might be just missing from teacher education. It's the same with lots of professionals.

Áine Lynch:

My background is nursing, as you've said. When I did nursing we spent a little time in college and then we used to go out to the wards all the time and learn all the practical. The college bit was very small and then teaching had to be a professional like every other professional, and they spend most of the time in the colleges now. But nursing is fundamentally a practical job and I think we need to rebalance those kind of professional educational pieces with where a job is practical. We need to make sure that when they're in college they're learning the foundations of practical skills in a practical way and just not a theoretical way. That's a long answer.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It was a long question. No, but it makes it big. It was. I know that makes perfect sense. Just go back to yourself now in your career. As part of this, we ask people to make up a question that we can ask somebody else. It's an anonymous one, so I'm going to ask you what's the bravest thing you've done in your career to date? What is the bravest thing you've done?

Áine Lynch:

Left school early what?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

age were you in when you left school 16. Why?

Áine Lynch:

Because I didn't like school.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I had great friends and the parents go mad.

Áine Lynch:

Yes, completely. I had great friends at school. I had great teachers at school. Very recently I found an old school report at Christmas time and it was actually worse than I ever remembered it being. But I didn't suit sitting in rows listening and a lot of my report was about looking out the window, fidgeting, not being interested, not concentrating. Now people could put all sorts of labels on that now, but it just didn't suit me school and I don't think it suits a lot of children.

Áine Lynch:

And Mike goes fast. I don't think it suits any child, Because childhood is a time where you're moving and you're exploring and all of those kind of things. Some children are better at putting up with it than others. I wasn't a child who was good at putting up with it. Luckily I was intellectually OK so I could pass enough O levels to get me by as they were at the time. But that was luck, not work. I think if I had stayed in the school system then, because I would have been going on to do A levels, I would have failed miserably and that would have altered my projection in life quite dramatically, Because I don't think I'm going to try it again. So with my O levels I scraped some buy-in. I got through, I left.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

O levels is like junior cert though. Yeah, yeah. And it was funny because when I said I was, and A levels then is the new cert.

Áine Lynch:

Yeah.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

And what's GCSE?

Áine Lynch:

That's new. That's what O levels used to be.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

OK.

Áine Lynch:

So when I did it it was O levels and CSE, and then they went into GCSEs.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Because the only reason that was Rob Neutronner has a GCSE, that's right, matt's an iron.

Áine Lynch:

Two GCSEs. Yeah, that's right. So he's younger than me. He's younger than me. So when I decided I was leaving school, my dad particularly went berserk, because I would have always been parents. Each meeting it was always on your really bright. She doesn't apply herself, she doesn't try, she's, it's all. She's got all this potential but she's just not doing it. So when I was leaving school then and legally then you could at 16, it was felt that I was throwing all this potential away. I just knew if I'd have gone on to A levels, I'd seen my older brother I've one older brother. I'd seen how hard he tried to work for his A levels. I'm never doing that Like I don't work at school, so I'm never doing that level of work.

Áine Lynch:

And I did bits of jobs here and there. But my dad had said to me you're not leaving school with no job Because there's nobody in this house not going out somewhere during the day. And at the time he thought he was safe because we were in a massive recession in England. That was in the 80s and nobody was getting jobs. But a week later I came in with my job and I left and I think it was really brave because there wasn't one person supporting me in my decision Not one person. The school were having me up at the top of the class being told how stupid I was in front of all my classmates because I was deciding to leave school. It's quite barbaric when you think about it, but I walked out of that school against everybody's advice and I think I really knew it was the right thing for me to do. And it wasn't laziness, because I'm not a lazy person.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I can vouch for that. Yeah, and I wasn't then either.

Áine Lynch:

I'm just not a lazy person, but I knew I wouldn't succeed at A levels. I absolutely knew down to my toes I wouldn't succeed at A levels and I knew I needed to be successful. So whatever I was doing, I needed to be able to do it. So, really strangely, I went into accountancy because I got as much as I didn't work. Maths was a strength, so I did my maths level actually a year early, so this was something that looked good on my CV. For one to prevent a word, because it was a race got his evening. So I actually got a job in a local accountants office with. Then they agreed to put me on a certified accountants course. As soon as I went on the certified accountants course I left accountancy because it was back to that sitting in a classroom.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Break your poor father's heart. To God, I mean my gosh.

Áine Lynch:

So many times in my life.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

And then you roar laughing when you became the CEO of the National Parents'.

Áine Lynch:

School. I mean you've held all these meetings You're at the top table with the Minister of Education.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

He must have got a great kick out of it at least.

Áine Lynch:

I got quite quickly about my education because it became a joke in the family for a long time that she's the only one that left school early Education in these degrees and these masters and these post-grad. She's never left school since she left. You know she left school early.

Áine Lynch:

So education obviously was something I was drawn to, but not in the format of school. And I just think when you say brave, it was very brave because I wasn't getting any support and that was really bad English, which reflects the fact that I left school early, but it was very brave because nobody was supporting me. But I think if I'd have gone and done A-levels, I'd have failed spectacularly at them and it would have been such a negative experience for me. I don't think I'd have gone into nursing and I don't think I would. I think it would have changed the trajectory of my academic career and my professional career in not a good way.

Áine Lynch:

So I think that was the first brave decision I made. That allowed the other ones to be easier, actually, and it also made me realize that you can do things that nobody else agree with and they can turn out all right. The second one was leaving nursing to go to university. Like I just spent years training to be this professional nurse. Everybody was so proud of me and I was in it, qualified a week from my pediatrics. I'd literally started a job for two weeks as a qualified pediatric nurse.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

And you're most proud of a national parents council, because it seems to me it's the only thing you've stated.

Áine Lynch:

No, it was a nice piece of super9. Oh forever?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I don't know. You've said there on it that you needed to experience success. Would it be true to say that every child needs experiences? That's what will keep them in school. They need to experience success and they can handle the failures of not being able to be good at maths or be rubbish with a paintbrush or I can't learn that poem by heart. They can imagine, as long as they have success somewhere in the broad spectrum that is the Irish curriculum and I'm proud of how critical it is, as broad as it gets. If you can experience success somewhere in that, I think as a child, you can handle everything else Because you say, no, I'm good at that, I am good, I have value, I have worth. I suppose it goes back to what you were saying about parents. I matter.

Áine Lynch:

Yes, and I think yes as a child, I think yes as an adult. I think it's part of the human condition. We need to feel that we're achieving. I mean, constant failure is just absolutely horrendous, isn't it? I think, if that's a message kids are getting all the time is, and that's not about just saying, oh well, they're good at art or they're good at sports. It's about making all the subjects achievable for a student at the level that they're at.

Áine Lynch:

But for me it was more than that, because I actually could achieve the subjects. I couldn't sit there that long and I couldn't concentrate. Now I think classrooms have changed dramatically since I was in them, but I had some really good teachers. I particularly remember my English teacher, who made learning energetic and firm. But I still struggled with double period of English. In fact, I used to get depressed at the thought of going in and I knew I was going to be in this seat for an hour and 10 minutes listening and talking about English, and I'd get depressed at the thought of it. I can even feel that again now, thinking about it. And that was nothing to do with the teacher. And of all the subjects, english was one of the ones I enjoyed more than others.

Áine Lynch:

I just found the school structure incredibly difficult and I know that if somebody had given me a label then it wouldn't have made me cope with it any better, and I don't think I should have had a label either. I think school has to be more engaging and that's not to diminish. I know there's much, much different things going on in schools now and a lot more engaged, but there's still. If you walk into a school, they don't look much different to how they used to and for the child that engages in a physical and kind of kinetic and doing way, there's very little in the school. So then that's how you finish up getting now, I was absolutely crap at art but I loved it and in fact I was very dissuaded from taking it at a higher level from my art teacher on a report that I read recently.

Áine Lynch:

But I liked it because I wasn't sitting in a seat and I was moving around and I was getting things and I was creating things and I loved sports because I wasn't sitting down and I wouldn't want that interpreted in she's not academic, she's sporty or she's arty. I think I am academic. I mean, I've got.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I think the proof of the pudding there is in yeah.

Áine Lynch:

I think I am academic, but I'm not that type of academic. So I think we have to challenge ourselves with the education system, and I think we are doing. But we're having the conversations about leaving certificate now and things like that. But we have to keep pushing that and, even though we might not be able to make all the changes we want to not do now, I think we have to aim for that blue sky thinking, at least know where we're trying to get to. You know, it beats to the heart of inclusion, and inclusion at every level.

Áine Lynch:

How do we make our education system that's okay for a child who's learning differently? How do we make it okay for a child who comes from a different ethical background that their home life is just so different that the culture of a school just doesn't make sense to them, the language of school doesn't make sense to them. So how can we make our education system be relevant to all of those different people? And it's a huge challenge, but I think we're well on the road to it. I think some of the discussions that are happening now around inclusion are really, you know, really broad and very encouraging. But it's how we get there and I think we do need to have a vision to where we're going.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Well, anya. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think we'll finish on that success and vision. Anya Karebeer and Mahmoud, thanks so much for coming into the world. Thank you, asas, and I'll see you in the next episode. Now I think we're back in forms of show, so look out for the episode questions and polls. You can follow us across our social media channels Instagram, twitter, linkedin, facebook. The links are in the show notes. If you have any thoughts on today's episode or suggestions for future topics, email Zita here at zrobinson@dwec. ie. Zita is at zrobinson@dwec. ie. Oh, and, as always, don't forget to book your CPD. Go to our website dwec. ie. That's dwec. ie. Míil maith agaibh ar ër ëist. Have a great Slán Tamaill.

Áine Lynch:

Teachers themselves is a DWEC original produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Ultan Mac Mathúna

Host