Teachers Themselves

Fiona Forman on the Importance of Wellbeing, Resilience and Positive Psychology

• Dublin West Education Centre • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Get ready for a meaningful conversation with the extraordinary Fiona Forman, an acclaimed author and pioneering educator in the realm of well-being and positive psychology. Join us as Fiona recounts her own early career setbacks and hear how she transformed it into a valuable lesson in resilience, using it now as an example to empower children with the conviction that they are stronger than they can imagine. 

In this episode of ‘Teachers Themselves’, Fiona takes us on an enlightening exploration of her ground-breaking program that synthesizes positive psychology in education and parenting. Fiona also discusses the profound impact of the Covid pandemic on her work and for teachers worldwide. She delves into the essential role of resilience in these challenging times and the power of positive psychology to build it. 

Amid the turbulence of an ever-evolving world, Fiona unravels the impact of our fast-paced lives on schools and the pressing need for a more balanced, mindful approach to education. Offering a beacon of hope to teachers, Fiona advocates slowing down, practicing self-compassion, and rediscovering the joy of teaching. This episode is a goldmine of knowledge for educators and parents, a must-listen for anyone committed to improving teaching practices and education systems.

In this episode, Fiona provides her top 3 CPD tips for the academic year ahead. You can listen to her recommendations in a bite-size, separate short bonus episode. 

Fiona’s CPD recommendations for the year ahead, are for Positive Psychology and Wellbeing, Trauma Informed Education and AI. You can book some of her CPD recommendations here:
Organising ‘Well-Being Week’ in Primary School
The Resilient Teacher: Approaches from Positive Psychology
Developing Children’s Resilience: Approaches from Positive Psychology 
Leading an Attachment Aware School
Unleash the Power of AI in Primary Education 


You can follow Fiona on Instagram via @fionaformanwellbeing

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Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre produced by Zita Robinson.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I'm your host, Ultan Mac Mathúna. This podcast is brought to you by Dublin West Education Centre. We're located in the grounds of TU D Tallaght, serving and supporting the school communities of West Dublin and beyond. In this podcast, I'll be speaking with some of the very talented, dedicated people who bring you your CPD. Facilitators with a background and passion for education in Ireland. Educators whose commitment to students and colleagues shines through in their delivery of courses for Dublin West Ed Centre.

Fiona Forman:

When we know better, we do better, I love that phrase.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

My guest today is Fiona Forman. Fiona is an author, speaker, facilitator and trainer in the area of well-being and positive psychology in education and parenting. Fiona holds an MSc in Applied Positive Psychology the Science of Well-Being from the University of East London. Having spent many years as a teacher, she has seen first hand the many benefits this brings to both young people and adults alike. She's the co-author of Weaving Well-Being, an SPHE programme for children, which is now widely used in Ireland and abroad. Fiona is also the author of Wired for Well-Being, a new well-being programme for second level schools. Her junior programme, Welcome to Well-Being, has also been released in Ireland and abroad. In this episode I'll be speaking with Fiona about her passion for placing well-being at the heart of school and family life. So, Fiona, you're very welcome to Teachers Themselves podcast. Are you keeping well?

Fiona Forman:

Thanks, Ultan, and I'm delighted to be here, and it's lovely to be here and hear all that. I'll just be reminded myself of the importance of well-being and the journey I've been on. So again, lovely to speak to teachers about my own journey. Delighted to be here. So thanks again, Ultan.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Not at all, fiona, and actually that's what we're going to kick off with, I suppose is where did your journey begin? Funny enough, it's amazing in talking to people how people came at teaching in different ways, and you know the old traditional of you know your three years in Pats. People actually find different ways to start teaching or do different things during their career. Could you tell us a little bit about how you started teaching? I know when you left school you didn't go straight into college or the teacher training colleges. It was at the time. What did you do, fiona?

Fiona Forman:

Yeah, and again, I suppose it was relatively straightforward. But I was also about type of child I think some of us are that. I always knew I did want to do teaching. It's just something I just always had a passion for, loved my own primary education. I had a lot of very inspirational teachers there, so it was like that's definitely what I want to do and unfortunately the first time I applied to go into Pats I didn't.

Fiona Forman:

I didn't get an offer and I was trying to remember the year early 80s. I was very disappointed and I think part of that helped. You know, one of that was one of the reasons. Maybe later on I became interested in the area of resilience and adversity and how you deal with those kind of knocks that you get early on in your life, because that was a big one for me it really was, because you know when you're very fixated on something and you really want something and you don't get it, that's a really good learning opportunity. Kind of made a career out of that now afterwards, but because I had to go through it myself, so I ended up. I don't sound kind of very spoiled to say I ended up in Trinity doing psychology, which was my second choice.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

How bad is that?

Fiona Forman:

Oh God, I'm so spoiled. But I didn't want to be there, I want to be in Pats. But having done that, I did a year of psychology and Irish and had a great year, made a lot of friends. And again, you know, you get put in these positions, you have to make the best of them. And then I found out during that year that I could actually apply to Patsy a second year running without having to repeat the leaving. So I did that and I'm so.

Fiona Forman:

I'm not saying I was blasé, but I suppose I was a little fixated. I had kind of thought, well, maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. And then I got the offer the second year round. So then Trinity kept my place open for me if I wanted to come back. So I was very lucky and then I went to Pats. But I think what happened to me there at that point was I really appreciated it and don't forget in those days I was 17, that first year applying to Pats. I was only 17. You think how young, you know, we were back in the day starting off the journey, very young to kind of be making those decisions.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

So for yourself, the year in Trinity, you probably needed to go at 17, rather than going straight into Pats, Like it was probably when you think of the advantages you've gotten from that sense, it probably is your power to go to the best thing that could have happened.

Fiona Forman:

You're right, Ultan. You're right Because, again, it's a much bigger college. Obviously I met a lot of different people that I would never have met. Talk about going from second level to Trinity. You were very much left to your own devices, even finding my way around the college. So I did have to really really dig deep and also dealing with the fact that I was dealing with that disappointment of not thinking through my career path. Is this? No, it's not. That's not going to happen. So what am I going to do about it? So I learned a lot about myself. I learned that I was, you know, that there was more than one way of doing things and that I was stronger than I thought, which is a lovely message that I give to children now, because you know I always like to talk to them about difficulties that we overcame, and we don't necessarily choose them, but when we have to deal with them, we do realize, maybe, hopefully that's the idea of post-traumatic growth. Not saying that was a trauma, but you know, those small little obstacles that we may deal with.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It's like a heartbreak because you had your heart set on something. I think about that and it's quite public, because everyone knows you're going for a teacher.

Fiona Forman:

Yeah, it's something, yeah, it's a laugh to say I didn't get. You know, I was quite traumatic, I suppose, about it as well, you know. But I had the time to be at 17, and you know the world is over. You know the sort of thing doesn't happen. You know, but when I went to pass the second year then I realized it was much smaller college, it was much more insular. I suppose my worldview had been opened a little bit more in Trinity for the year, which I felt really stuck to me. You know, I was only a year older than my friends but they were looking up to me. You know I knew where to get the student card from and I knew where to go in town.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

So from being kind of the youngest of the class he ended up being kind of the eldest in the class and you had that bit of savvy about you, which was great. But anyway, you went through paths, enjoyed paths, and out you came. And in those days and I came out, in those days too jobs were very thin on the ground. It was a different era than then. Safe to say that if you're a fellow coming out, you had a far better chance of getting a job than a girl coming out, so it was just the way it was.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It was tough going there because I know a lot of my classmates, you know, stopped somewhere to broad, some did other things, some struggled away and got bits and pieces until they landed, you know, the job for the year or, if they were lucky enough to hit the holy grail and, out of the turmoil, tell us about how you got into teaching then.

Fiona Forman:

Yeah, I know we've chatted before about this on the idea that maybe our expectation wasn't to get the permanent job, and I think that you know your expectations do really color how then you experience life. So we didn't necessarily have that expectation of a permanent job, which I think again stood to us because we went in I'm talking about myself and I know my co-workers, my friends, who I still see you didn't expect to get a permanent job. In those days we felt very lucky to get, you know, a year long contract to career break and I suppose it set us up for the idea that we might be moving around during our career. But maybe, and even though part of that little bit of that, you know, wants the safety and the, you know, the consistency that you feel is the one's a permanent job, really that's not, I don't think, good for any of us because you can get a bit stagnant, but if you get it it's like almost like a poison challenge, because if you get the part of the job you're going to stick with it, but if you don't get it, again that opportunity to learn, to grow, to have to become more flexible. So I ended up going to one particular school at St Paul's in the airfields for four years, which was great at the time. Four years was quite long as a temporary contract and then I moved from there. That ended.

Fiona Forman:

Everybody came back from the career breaks. That time a lot of us had to go then spread our wings. I went to a school in Sutton then for a while and from then I went to a school in Mount Bergen and I found my final home in Malahide. So I wasn't too far. It was all North County Dublin.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

But still there were different schools and you know yourself you could have two schools next door to each other and they could be quite a different experience for you. And if you get a broad spread of experiences like that, it's only going to add into the richness of the teacher and indeed the person you become.

Fiona Forman:

So true because, again, you learn. Different schools have different classes and there's always somebody, there's always a couple of people there, especially when you're young. You remember, you're looking up to certain people and you realise, oh, here's a different way of doing it or here's an ethos here and from every school you go to, you learn something and you bring it with you into your own practice. Lifelong learning is so important to us and I know that's part of the role of the education centres and just such a great family of thoughts.

Fiona Forman:

Your life can give you those opportunities, even though they might seem difficult at the time. They were all different schools and I learned so much in all of them and, yeah, it was a really good experience.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

And the gas thing is there, that speaking of lifelong learning and that. So you got going, you're in the different schools, you're knocking up the years of experience, you start the family. Things are busy when you have your own family. Then they start into the exams and at one stage you're the junior, certain and leaving certain home and you decided, instead of down the tools and taking some time, you decided to make a change. So what did you do?

Fiona Forman:

Yeah, I can't. So sometimes you look back over your life you think what was I thinking of? You know why was I doing that? But I decided at that point I'd always been interested in further education and I knew I had a you know, an interest in well-being and psychology. But I was always looking for the right course, I suppose.

Fiona Forman:

And then I just came across with that particular year and it happened to be the year my own two, I just said we're doing. One was doing junior and one was doing a leaving start. So it was a busy year anyway. So I decided that's the year for me to do the master's while I was teaching full time as well.

Fiona Forman:

I do look back on that year and think, oh, off that end from that, maybe not take quite as much on next time. But I think again, you know you're probably the same as me also, when you really are interested in something I mean you're passionate about, you've got to find a way to do it. And in a way it kept me sane for that particular year, because this was my time. If I was studying this, this is my, I didn't feel it at work. I felt like this is something I'm so interested in. Okay, I'm going to grab a couple of hours here, a couple of hours there, and sometimes you know that phrase ask if you want something, don't ask a busy person. It is sometimes true that you have to find the time to do something.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

You will do and you are modelling best behaviour to your children at home, as well they say well, look at this mam now she's got a job, she's run the house here, and and and.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Now she's studying as well. You know, and you know yourself, you can't make them study. How do they're going to do it or not? The best thing maybe you can do is show them the best, the best example you can. That's what you were doing. So you studied that master's in psychology and it has to be said too that you know, of course we all know about well-being now and we're somewhat of a favorite part of psychology. But back then, it wasn't that long ago, this was all fresh and, in fairness, it was pioneering of you to be bringing that into primary schools. How did it land in your school where you were teaching?

Fiona Forman:

yeah, it was great. I feel I was lucky to discover that time and there's quite a new field and when I was studying at 10 years ago it really was. That was the first master's that was actually online. So I was very lucky to be that first cohort in the college, because I wouldn't I don't think I would have been able to stop working and do it full time. I just loved it from when I started. Learning about it was just and I just felt this is so applicable to education.

Fiona Forman:

So, as I was learning about it myself, you know whether it was character, strength or positive emotions or resilience I just started to develop lessons for myself, for my own students. I had second class that year. I think one of the first things we explored with the 24 strengths of positive psychology, which I've never heard of and it's just a gorgeous language to teach children. So part of my program, part of my webinars lost the time. So again, practically speaking, I started to do that, do the lessons and maybe the kids that you know. They're so receptive.

Fiona Forman:

Power, positivity I love, hot talking about toxic positivity, because that's another thing. It's not about forcing ourselves to be positive. Positivity is really, really powerful. We do need to try and feel as positive as we can, as often as we can, and the science behind that is there. So as I started bringing into my classroom, it was just like opening another door or another lens and it was very well received by the kids, by the parents, by the principal, the teachers. So other teachers started to ask me about it and I started to advise more lessons, just my own little lesson plans started giving to other teachers. When I look back and it was so organic, I wasn't saying I like a big program now, I was looking, I should say when I was doing the masters, I was looking, I was thinking there must be educational programs for teaching these children.

Fiona Forman:

But they really weren't so I thought, right, well, I'll do that myself. So then it did very much go from that. I think I said to you that one day a department inspector and again these little moments of support and encouragement, keep you going. And the department inspector was in. It was in the school and I was teaching one of the lessons and he was really complimentary and he heard the kids talking about their automatic negative thoughts and what what they do with them. They were funny. They were only second class but they had all the things go and he said you really should think of getting that published.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

You developed a summer course around then. Is that right originally?

Fiona Forman:

That's how I got into CPD. So, and as the program started to become more well known, then teachers wanted to know more about not just about the program but about positive psychology in general. So I devised a summer program again a number of years ago. It was based on based one and again it was very much based on the masters that I had.

Fiona Forman:

I had studied the concepts from it and how I had adapted that for recent classroom that would come from Drumcondra Education Center. That was the first one that I worked with and that was I can't remember what year that was, maybe 2016. So, and I enjoyed it so much and I was very nervous, you know, I talked to children about comfort zones and doing things. I'm here Now.

Fiona Forman:

I do know from experience that I have to be kind of pushed out from the comfort zone because when somebody said to me, you know, do a course about this, I was like absolutely not, I won't be standing up in front of a group of teachers. You know, wasn't something I saw for myself. I find that very nerve-wracking and yes, and that's why, when I talked to children about the comfort zone, to realise this stressful to go out to a comfort zone, but that's the only way we grow and it's normal to feel a bit stressed. But again, the teaching community is so supportive, the support and encouragement I got all along the way and again, it was my own staff that did that first course and they were all like, oh, it's just us, you know, we know it anyway, do the course. So I was shaking the first morning it's really hard to refer to your old staff.

Fiona Forman:

Maybe so maybe so, but yeah, I don't know which is harder.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Well, that's shortly after that. Then our paths, first cross, you came across mine. You wouldn't have known me at the time but I was attending an INTO event. It was a cross-border thing. You present the stuff in such a practical way and I'd be a bit of a cynic sometimes and you know you'd hear well-being and I would be kind of, I just get on with it. Do you know what you presented in such a practical way? That appealed to me instantly and I said actually that's dead right and it was a no-nonsense approach and you tick a lot of boxes for me. But the minute I heard you talking at that event it was in the Hotel in County Down Newry Canal Court or whatever it's called.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

They sponsored the Down football team and I'd never forget and it's no surprise to me that it went off so well for you and it grew legs I ended up publishing those books and that they're so well received. There's a program now and I suppose when I started here in Dublin West I said, well for sure, we're going to be getting Fiona, but of course Fiona was working here already before I arrived, because when COVID hit you start to work with Dublin West. Can you tell me a little bit about that, fiona?

Fiona Forman:

Just before I answer that. I just really appreciate what you said there, because when people talk about wellbeing I do sometimes get this kind of two different attitudes. One that it's very fluffy, it's like we're fluffy and frivolous and what are you on about. And then the other one is that it's abstract or what are we even talking about? And the great thing about positive psychology is science and I think when people see the science and they, they just become a little bit more reassured that you know there is evidence based, that it is. You know, it is science and we're trying to improve the quality of our lives and our students lives and software teachers can do everything they can't and I don't like teachers to feel that pressure but to figure out what can we do and then how to do it in the most practical way. And practical side of it. I'm glad that you mentioned that. Yeah, it's been a very incremental journey for me. And then, of course, the pandemic hit.

Fiona Forman:

I did end up leaving teaching then just before the pandemic because it was growing and I decided that I'd leave and I'd go into full time, into into writing and giving the talks, and as soon as that happened, the pandemic happened and all the schools and all my talks disappeared, my diary was empty. And then, fantastic again, the school community and the education centres set up and again here's another out of the comfort zone. Yeah, do you want to do a webinar? And you know, I know myself so well now that my initial feeling is always I'm always a little bit scared about doing something new. But I know I've learned that that won't stop me and that's what I think I like.

Fiona Forman:

Working with children who maybe have a bit of anxiety or doubt themselves, because I want to make sure that doesn't stop them. Just you can feel that way, but you can still do it. So Dublin West was one of the first ones, and of course the big topic at that point was teacher wellbeing. So I had been doing quite a lot of work on that. Of course that was the number one topic. I was seeing my colleagues at school since I left. Oh, my goodness.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

(FIONA) You saw them too, you were teaching at that time, weren't you?

Fiona Forman:

(ULTAN) I was, yeah yeah, on the uncertainty, the pressure, the expectations. You know my heart went out to teachers at that time, so, and education centres were fantastic because it was one of the first topics that it yourselves were interested in to support the teachers as a starting point. So that was one of the first webinars I did, and then some of the other topics then obviously became relevant and the act twice was incredible, wasn't it?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

From then on, absolutely. I think I suppose people got the terms with the you know the IT end of things quickly enough with the zoom and what have you. And I was impressed that teachers were willing for the first time ever since the foundation, I suppose, was the state that the kids were coming into their houses because they were getting up on zoom and they were doing this stuff and the other. So all of a sudden mam's, dad's kids they could see into their living room or their whatever, their upstairs, back bedroom or whatever it was. Initially it was really tentative steps and then teachers started doing stuff.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Like we read, some teachers have moved down home during the COVID and there was one lad and he was, as he's feeding calves and you show the kids the calves and it was all sorts of absolutely brilliant people out there in a way that was well beyond what they would have expected to be doing, and it was a real hats off to them, and I really hope that people never forget what teachers did around that time, because they did have to expose an awful lot of their private lives, which it's not a comfortable thing to do, and you know that when you go back to school they'll all know that again.

Fiona Forman:

You know so that separation was taken away, so the boundaries were definitely blurred a bit and I know that was stressful for teachers too when the downside of that was feeling of being always on and you know the emailing. I've only talked to some teachers yesterday saying that the access to email really came on board during during COVID. But really now teachers do feel very overwhelmed because I've gotten really been a pullback on that. So you know, it was just. I think we're thrown into something at that time and again the versatility and flexibility and the creativity of teachers was just I thought was gone on my own school. I've blown away, but again there was absolute stress attached to it as well, as you were saying. You know some full of balance though.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Thankfully now what it's ended up in is from an education centre's point of view is that we're able to ride two horses. Now we have the face-to-face and the online stuff, so what we're able to do for teachers and for schools and school communities has broadened hugely. Whereas we used to have to get Fiona Forman in to do a face-to-face, you only hit so many people. Now Fiona Forman can do can be doing a webinar for you know, teachers from you know from all the way Donegal back down to Kerry or across to Dublin or over to Galway, and all in the one session. So for that it is brilliant and I suppose we were thankful for that.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

But just to kind of go from the particular to the general now for a minute, a team that seems to have run through your professional life but you know, what might seem difficult right now turns out to be okay and you're stronger than you think and that bears fruit in so many people's lives. But you know, the well-being of the positive psychology gives you, I suppose, a scaffold or a structure on which to build that right now. So right now I'm feeling this is very difficult, I'm unsure, but when you have what Fiona Forman gives you that scaffolding is there where I can see okay, this is where I'm going to go with this. Is it that that drives you? Is it that you know trying to help people when they're feeling I need help now?

Fiona Forman:

yeah, I think so. I was trying to figure out. Obviously for teaching, that's very much a part of it anyway. So that's why we go into teaching to help children to reach their potential. And then I supposed to be more specific when you start seeing children who hold themselves back and you know there's so much anxiety now, there's so much issues, you know, and resilience is a both word. That is the concept of resilience that we're talking about, but it's a hard to pin down.

Fiona Forman:

Resilience is so, again, positive psychology. I was just so fascinated because there was this volume of resilience. There's the idea that, yeah, we do have a baseline of resilience and obviously our surroundings and our environment build our resilience and community builds our resilience. But also we can develop tools, we can develop skills, and that's what really interested me, because I thought I needed them myself and I thought I had been talking to them through my life but that may be knowing the terminology for them and I was like, wow, these are ways that we can actually help ourselves through those hard times. So then, our dealing with it, as I said, now more than ever so I feel maybe that is my main interest is obviously promoting wellbeing really, really important and building resilience there, to the sides of the same coin.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

What do you think Fiona has changed from when you and I would have started teaching to now? So what has changed for the teacher?

Fiona Forman:

For the teacher. I think it's nearly unrecognizable. I don't know if you agree with me on that and even in the three years since I left there's been so many new initiatives since then. But I think it was a simpler job. There wasn't the workload, there weren't all the new initiatives. I think there was more trust for teachers. There was definitely less stress. It was more holistic, definitely more holistic.

Fiona Forman:

And then over time, gradually, more paperwork came in, more policies came in and I know some of them have brought benefits. But I think overall it has led to a sense of overwhelm for teachers. More and more initiatives and I just wonder what water's the purpose, like teacher wellbeing again being impacted by that. And the teachers are the greatest resource in any classroom. I always say that to teachers you are the greatest resource. So we have to value ourselves, we have to mind ourselves no more than any policy or programme, and it's actually you as a person and that relationship you have with your class and I just I think that was more valued back in the day than now. So I think that's a big change.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Would schools be a reflection on life in Ireland in general, that things are more cluttered, there's less trust, there's less forgiveness? Maybe there's even less joy, just simple joy in just getting on with life?

Fiona Forman:

That is true. So life has become more intense. The intensity of life. I was talking to a group of teachers last week. Another summer course was just doing a guest talk which was great because it was lovely to check in with teachers during the summer as well and we were talking about that intensity and anybody of my age or around my age can talk about that. But the intensity has really increased. I was saying that towards the end of my time in teaching.

Fiona Forman:

I noticed one day that everybody in my school was learning. They were always learning. You know, they came out to class from in the middle of the tea, they were running, they were jogging. You know, in the morning they were running, running to the line and I just it just was an insight. One day I felt that pace in here is frantic. It's a frantic pace. It's a big school and we had a great discussion as to why are we doing that. You know who's? Who's creating that pace? Have we any control over? And you know I'm a huge fan of mindfulness and just taking a little bit of time to be a little bit calmer, to get off autopilot. All of those things are very important. Who?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

was creating that pace.

Fiona Forman:

Some of us said that we were doing it ourselves, you know, and that maybe two or three people would be blaming. But it's very easy to get sucked into a culture and it very much depends on the senior teachers in the school. You know, and I was very lucky, the first school I went to there were senior teachers there who were laid back, who had a great balance feel of life and were great for us as younger teachers and had a really common sense. Again, it depends what school you're in. If you have that kind of bit of wisdom, I suppose, either, and if you have people there and stuff that kind of saying, isn't it so down, you don't need to be running and rushing?

Fiona Forman:

So, again, it's awareness and it's off autopilot, but the autopilot is is to run, to rush, be running from one thing to another. It's stressful and I think, as you said, life is like that. Our lives are busier and maybe corporate work was like that and I feel teaching wasn't like that, but it's become a little bit like that Because, again, we are overloaded. We are trying to deal with a huge curriculum. Again, curriculum has changed a lot and I think what we're trying to do is not really sustainable in a lot of ways.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I remember I was very, very fortunate to be taught by the great Fintan Walsh when I was in fifth and sixth class and I was back in the school for a school placement when I was a student. Watching them then as a student teacher was fascinating. And then, a few years on, we were talking about school planning and somebody quoted Fintan. They said he said yeah, well, when it comes to your yearly plan, hit the staples by Christmas. I want to notice. If you're halfway through the book by Christmas, you'll have plenty of time to call the curriculum.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Hit the staples by Christmas and you know, there was a guy who gave. There was 48 boys in our class. We had a wonderful education. We absolutely loved the guy and you know his approach to this. Now, god, if it happened now, the inspectors would have a heart attack. But you know what we all learned. We had a super top of the broad education. He used to bring us into the Abbey Theatre and off from nature walks and he was an avid sportsman. We were in hurling, we all learned the Falsbury flop. All this stuff. You know you oftentimes think, like you're saying, is all of this self imposed?

Fiona Forman:

You know you can look back now and kind of say, when did that start happening? And I don't really know, and but I think that the experience you're talking about there's a richness in that isn't there. There was a richness of experience that you know there's sometimes. Think, as the curriculum got broader in a way. Actually, one of the teachers last week said, in a way you're doing so many things on a very superficial level and you're not really getting a chance to go in deep with anything and that then affects the whole atmosphere of the classroom that you're kind of trying to skim through this and skim through that. It affects everything. You know, books, teachers like that I had a teacher like that myself as well in national school.

Fiona Forman:

I went back as a teacher student and it was really lovely. You know, again, it was definitely an inspiration to me. It was music, it was art, each talk for a long time, the stories and history. You know it's just one of those characters, but again, it's a room for that. I actually found one. Such many recently are we getting a bit like the cookie cutter? Here's the circle type teacher. We all do this, we all have our fans the same and you know, our disclaimers are the same. We're all doing the same and there's something lost. We lose something. That's what I'm trying to say, and we don't need to, I suppose, be so regimental about it.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It's a creative process. When it's done properly, it's a creative process, and the best is spontaneous.

Fiona Forman:

Yeah, spontaneous, at all times.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

There are the things we remember. Now, when you think back on your own days, you don't remember the grammar lessons. You remember when we put on the play or we did the sports, and when people come back to school they'd say you know well, Mr Mac Mathúna, you know you're still with the hurley team, so you still do this. That's what they remember and that's what adds to them as a person and it builds them as a person.

Fiona Forman:

But anyway, I'd like to say to add to that, what it does and we mentioned at the very start what you try to do is inspire another learning and it goes back to that. You want to inspire curiosity and creativity in children. It's not about. I sometimes feel it's become very content overloaded. There's a lot of content to be covered and sometimes that's at the detriment to you know, children get sometimes overloaded as well, whereas that love of learning, that creativity, you know, that interest that you might spark in a child they haven't had before. Like to me.

Fiona Forman:

That's the big picture of teaching. But again, I know it's harder at the moment and for younger teachers as well. I feel lucky that the system was like that when I started and I saw the benefits of us. So I was able to kind of look at the new system or the system changing with a more kind of critical eye, whereas if you only come in and you're training that system, you probably don't know, we cannot actually trust ourselves to solve that in a little bit. We can trust ourselves to look at everything going on a certain day and kids will still be OK.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Yeah well, with all this talk of teacher agency in the new curriculum. I do hope that teachers do take that agency out to themselves and say, OK, this is the way I want this experience to be for the children in my class, and take a, take a breath, take some time. But anyway, can I ask you please, Fiona, a couple of quick ones for you. I'm going to ask you to imagine if you had a magic wand and if you could change one thing about the job of the teacher. What would it be? But what would you get teachers doing if you could change their practice?

Fiona Forman:

I think what we've already talked about. If I had a magic wand, I'd take away a lot of the paperwork. I take a lot of the planning. I take away a lot of that I'd also love to put in again. We talked about the intensity of the school day.

Fiona Forman:

By the magic wand, I put in little pockets of time for reflection where we can actually stop and take five minutes, whether it's to breathe, think about, because, again, I know we talk a lot about the vector practitioners and it's a buzzword, but if you're in a classroom primary particularly you don't. You know if your foot goes in the door to the minute you leave. You know you're talking one thing to the next, you know to the intensity. So that will actually build in that. You know at a certain time, however we do it, I don't know but that there just be a little chance to recess, because I think that intensity and that stress can build over time and maybe can affect each other.

Fiona Forman:

So a little bit of time for reflection and maybe, again, collaboration. I mean, I'm very lucky at working with teachers and going into schools, but sometimes the best thing you learn is from looking at the teacher next door to you. I don't know some schools do that where you know they have certain times where you can go in and observe and I know we're the worst in the world sometimes for letting one other teacher to look at us, but you learn so much the practicalities again by you know that shared practice. I think there's so much richness, there's so much good practice already going on in schools, but maybe not a shared as much. Teachers are the experts in a lot of ways. So I'd love again building in a bit more reflection during the day and the teachers were able to share their expertise. And I know again, the education centres are fantastic for that because it's where teachers have an expertise and they get to share. So that is, you know, learning from each other is so, so important.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Thanks, fiona, I'm getting great value. I asked you for one thing, you got three there.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

So if you could change, say, magic wand, you could change one thing about the education system, so you're the Minister of education. You don't worry about getting voted back in, you can do whatever the hell you want with the whole system.

Fiona Forman:

I'd be running riots, changing everything. I think I would obviously try to put well being in there, as I know it is coming into education and the framework is there and the guidelines are there and I just like to make sure that you know, and again, I know I'm doing part of that myself, just making sure teachers are aware of that and get trained and they understand the importance of it. And again, education centres being a role and that's also, I feel, teachers, really we are really at the front line of so many things and there's not enough support for teachers and children might have so many issues. You know whether it's occupational therapy that children need or counseling. I've loved some kind of wraparound support system for, particularly in primary, early intervention. Can you just imagine in the dream world?

Fiona Forman:

But if a teacher, if you have so many children sitting in front of you, you actually can't meet all their needs? That's one of the most heartbreaking things. And if you have a child, you know they need occupational therapy, you know they might need art therapy or you know whatever they might need. And imagine if you could actually provide access to that child in the building Tomorrow. They're going to see the one cell and that's going to help them with that, because really what we are in for is teaching and learning.

Fiona Forman:

You know we go into teaching because we want to teach and want children to learn but I sometimes feel with so many obstacles to climb before we get to the teaching and learning, and I know some teachers recently have said to me that they feel that they're spending so much time on telling me children's needs very quickly and spread. We need obviously more SNAs, I feel, but to have those support systems I mean I know myself as a teacher you'd get a child in a second class. You probably know they had dyspraxia or dyslexia. You might be the first person who has to tell this to your parents, which is very difficult. It might be two years before a child actually get access to any help. I'm thinking of just vaccine in particular. You know whether it's occupational therapy and that's heartbreaking because we're welcome to reach their potential.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Well, I know, in a lot of your work it's not just schools, teachers, it's families as well, family-centered, and I think one of the beautiful things about being a school principal, I know, is that you're actually able to help families, entire families, which is, I suppose when you finish up your days and teach you're gonna say, well, I help families, which is a fantastic thing to do, and it's funny that you mentioned that. What a help would be to a whole family if that one child can get the help they're not gonna affect at home around the kitchen table.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

It is huge when you help that one child, and particularly, as you say, early intervention. But anyway, that's. If you're in the school for education in the morning. One thing I'd ask you then you could change to say magic wand what changes you make to education centers, fiona?

Fiona Forman:

I think education centers are already doing an amazing job, especially with the pandemic. You know they range webinars and supports. I truly think of any other to make sure that teachers are fully aware, and I know we talk about social media and it has a lot of benefits because it can bring like-minded people together and you know you can share ideas on social media a lot for that. So I just feel, to make sure that teachers are aware of all the amazing support stuff there are there for schools and teachers and again.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

I suppose as you say they're on social media. People's exposure to what's online now has turned into positive in a lot of ways. Like I know, I'm a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to social media, but when I joined the team here at Dublin West, Zita Robinson was talking about Instagram. I'd never gone near it before in my life and we started the Instagram and actually the amount of traffic it brings in to webinars and events both physically and online in the center is phenomenal, and Twitter can be a bit. You know, twittery For me is a very positive place. Now maybe it's the algorithm that's built around whatever I'm following, but I found to be very positive in that and the interaction it brings in here has been fantastic. So thanks for saying that, fiona, you have a vast experience there and I would ask you for a young teacher starting off or somebody who's come into teaching you know, at a later stage of their career or generally people are back in their teaching career what piece of advice would you give them in relation to their teaching career?

Fiona Forman:

It's so funny because I'm actually going to steal. I met a really good friend of mine yesterday who just retired, after, I mean I think she did 40, two years. You got it so she retired, obviously at her retirement party and so on, but I wasn't there for her speech. So she was telling me yesterday when we had the coffee. She was telling me what she said and I had just thought this was amazing. She just said please don't forget to have fun, don't forget to enjoy it. There's ups and downs in it and you know it's going to test you some of the days and you have to be prepared for that. But you have to make room for the fun, the joy, the lightness, because it will actually give you a lot of that as well.

Fiona Forman:

I miss that about teaching the fun with a child, or what a child might say, or a bit of crap they might have in the classroom, which she said spontaneity. Sometimes we can take it a little bit too seriously. It is a serious job, but I think how do you hold it a little bit more lightly? When I studied post-it psychology I became less serious as a teacher. That's funny. I realised I can give myself permission to slow down, number one.

Fiona Forman:

But that's what I said to teacher give yourself permission to slow down, to have a bit of fun, to have a bit of crack, to be compassionate towards yourself if you don't get everything done and to enjoy it as much as you can. Because that's what it's saying to you. But you know, with the intensity and the workload, you know I love the word intentional, because intentionality is the opposite of autopilot and if we're on autopilot you're just reacting. You know you're going through the motions, you're not really getting that meaningful. That depth of experience Again, am I in the present moment? Am I noticing what's going on? It is, it's so much good to happen in here. So, to be very intentional, go and give yourself permission to slow down, to treat yourself kindly, just to make time for the fun there is time for it and enjoying it, because that's what's going to sustain me in the long term. So I'm saving that from her.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Excellent. Well, look at, that is solid advice. I'd ask you also you've vast experience in CPD now as well. So teachers are getting ready for the new school year. What three top tips would you give teachers for CPD? So I'm trying to think of my year ahead. I'm a teacher who's going to be intentional this year. What three top tips for CPD would you give?

Fiona Forman:

Well, you've probably got the guess that I'm going to say positive psychology and well-being, and I'm doing a lot of work with yourselves. In the autumn term I've built on different topics. So, and again, the great thing about well-being there are so many different topics there to keep a break down and get into the nitty gritty. So, for example, I'm doing one about resilience. I'm doing how to organize a well-being week, resilience and teachers, self-compassion in children. So I would say, have a look at well-being as a topic and just tip your toe in and see what you think and I can start gently to introduce some of these ideas. I'm also very interested, you probably guess, trauma-informed education, which is kind of the other side of well-being, which is dealing with children with hard hats, difficulties. So that's really coming into education at the moment, isn't it trauma-informed?

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

And it's amazing. It doesn't take long looking at the news to see how a trauma of any kind in childhood follows you right through your adult life. And the more you were saying about early intervention, the sooner you deal with it the better, and you can't use it on your own, and maybe teachers in a position to give a small bit of head.

Fiona Forman:

It does tie in very well with well-being. The well-being is again very related to the nervous system, a thriving nervous system where you feel calm, you feel connected, as opposed to being in the fight for ease. So the trauma responses fight for ease and I think back to my early days in education where children maybe were in that fight for ease, but I didn't know it, I wasn't aware and of course their behavior, their behavior, is very, very linked to that. So I think, for example, of children who I had in the past with severe behavioral issues and I wouldn't be proud of the way that I would have dealt with that because I would have gone in, I kind of surfaced myself and looking at the behavior, because I really didn't have the awareness that this child's nervous system is overloaded, that they might be getting triggered by this or that there might be something going on that I'm not aware of. So the trauma-informed is very much about behavior, all behaviors, communication, what's going on with the child and, of course, the relationship being so, so important there. But I suppose I'm looking at it because it's something I wish I'd known earlier myself.

Fiona Forman:

I remember, even not that long ago, that little boy that I worked with. He was diagnosed eventually with ADHD because he had various severe behavioral issues very, very severe, and I didn't really feel that it was ADHD, but at least he got the diagnosis and that was at the time where he actually had to have the diagnosis to access resource. So at least he got that. But later on we found that there was severe trauma actually going on at home and we didn't know that and the ADHD was actually taken off, or I don't know what the word for that is undiagnosed, yeah, and Paris came back and told us, which was really, really nice, we found that I was protestant, we all had. Of course we didn't know, but we're saying wow, when I see all his behaviors.

Fiona Forman:

I just wish I had been just a little bit more tuned in as to maybe something was causing this, you know. And how can I best deal with this? You know. But again, a lot for teachers to be overwhelmed. But again, when we know better, we can do better. I love that phrase. So again, we have to forgive ourselves if we don't know. And of course, the last topic is I mentioned those topics there, but I suppose that the AI coming into teaching the task was GPT. Yep, I had to dip my toe in there again. I haven't. I don't know anything about it, so I'll be putting my hand up myself. We'll hopefully join some webinars, because I think it's going to possibly be transformative for education.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

Yeah, most certainly, and again, yeah, I've been talking to this series of podcasts. We've interviewed Shannon Ahern, who was one of the first out of the traps when it came to AI and education. She's delivered for us back last year and she'd be delivering again this year, I should say. So there are three excellent top tips. Excellent top tips.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

If I could summarize with two things I'm taking away from chatting with you, fiona, is what might seem difficult right now can turn out really to your benefit and the long run. And then that last one you just gave me, and I've written the both of them down because I used them again when we know better, we do better. It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you, fiona. We're only touching the very tip of the iceberg of what you have to say. I'd like to thank you for informing me, well you know, a few years back, about the importance of positive psychology, the importance of well-being, not only for the people for whom I had care and responsibility, but for myself as well, and I suppose you know that's the person for whom you have greatest responsibilities yourself. So thank you so much, fiona. It's been a real pleasure. Our paths will surely cross, as you do the courses here for us in Dublin West.

Fiona Forman:

Thanks so much, Ultan. Glad you to talk to you and really enjoyed the chat. So thanks and thanks. Keep up your all great work as well and I'm delighted to take part.

Ultan Mac Mathúna:

God bless. Thanks, fiona. Tune in next week for another episode of Teachers Themselves. Don't forget to like and subscribe, leave us a review and share it with colleagues and friends. Your feedback informs the show. You can follow us across our social media channels Instagram, Twitter, Linkedin, Facebook. Links are in the show notes. If you have any thoughts on today's episode or suggestions for future topics, email Zita here at zrobinson@ dwec. ie. Oh, and don't forget to book that CPD dwec. ie. Thanks again and have a great week. Slán Tamaill.

Fiona Forman:

Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre.

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