Teachers Themselves
"Teachers Themselves" is a new, engaging podcast designed specifically for educators in Ireland.
Whether you're a seasoned teacher looking to enhance your teaching practices, or a new educator seeking guidance and inspiration, "Teachers Themselves" provides a platform for professional growth and fosters a community of educators who are keen to learn. Join us as we explore the art and science of teaching, inspire each other, and shape the future of education, one episode at a time.
Hosted by DWESC Director, Ultan Mac Mathúna, and featuring insightful guest speakers, all educators themselves, this podcast offers conversational episodes focused on sharing teaching experiences, exploring shared values in education, and fostering a community of passionate educators.
Tune in to "Teachers Themselves" and unlock your full potential as an educator. Together, let's empower ourselves and our students for the challenges and opportunities of tomorrow.
“No written word, no spoken plea, can teach our youth what they should be, nor all the books on all the shelves, it’s what the teachers are themselves.” John Wooden
Teachers Themselves is a DWESC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Support Centre and produced by Zita Robinson.
Teachers Themselves
The Transformative Power of Teaching: John Williams on Professional Growth
What if the key to unlocking a student's potential lies in the hands of their teacher? A teacher whose goal was always just "to make a difference".
Join our host, Ultan Mac Mathúna, as he chats with John Williams, an experienced educator, former principal, and chairperson of the Dublin West Education Support Centre management committee. We discuss the vital role teachers’ play in the classroom and John's own professional growth.
Embark on a journey with John as we explore his unique career path, starting as a teacher at Divine Word National School in Marley Grange, Rathfarnham. Listen as John recounts his adventure-filled career break in Kuwait and dive into his time in London, where he completed his Masters in Education and delved into the different teaching styles of England and Ireland.
Our conversation explores the vast experience that John accumulated during his established career as an educator in Ireland and abroad, and particularly the changes he has seen over the span of his career, from his days battling with a Gestetner machine to the modern use of the interactive whiteboard.
Don't miss our insightful conversation about the Department of Education's Walk Tall programme and John's dedication to continuous professional development in teaching.
In this episode, John provides his top 3 CPD tips for educators planning for the academic year ahead. You can listen to his recommendations in a bite-size, separate short bonus episode - because we know how busy you are!
John’s CPD recommendations for the year ahead, are for Wellbeing, Leadership and Technology/AI. Luckily for you, we have you covered! You can book CPD this Autumn with dwec.ie
John is a vastly experienced facilitator of CPD and we are delighted that he will be facilitating CPD for DWESC again this Autumn. Book your place here: Applying for In School Management Positions in Primary Schools
Access Walk Tall resources here: https://www.pdst.ie/walktall
Don’t forget to like and subscribe, leave us a review and share it with colleagues and friends! Your feedback informs the show.
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If you have any thoughts on our episodes, or suggestions for future topics, email Zita at zrobinson@dwec.ie
Or take a minute to give us your feedback: Listener Feedback
Oh – and don’t forget to book that CPD – dwec.ie
Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre produced by Zita Robinson.
I'm your host, Ultan Mac Mathúna. This podcast is brought to you by Dublin West Education Centre. We're located in the grounds of TU Tallaght, serving and supporting the school communities of West Dublin and beyond. In this podcast, I'll be speaking with some of the very talented, dedicated people who bring you your CPD Facilitators with a background in passion for education in Ireland. Educators whose commitment to students and colleagues shines through in their delivery of courses for Dublin West Ed Centre.
John Williams:I'll refer you back to what I said earlier on, but I think the teacher is the greatest resource in any classroom.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Today I'm speaking with John Williams, an experienced educator, former principal and chairperson of our management committee here at Dublin West. So, John, you're very welcome to the Teacher Themselves Podcast. How are you keeping John? We're going to throw off with a couple of what we call zingers here. John, just a couple of questions.
John Williams:Go ahead.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:I'll throw them out Right. So Blackboard, whiteboard or Interactive Board.
John Williams:Neither. The teacher is the most important resource within the classroom, so I would question whether you actually need them. Okay, but having said that, I suppose in the modern day it would have to be the Interactive Whiteboard, even though I wasn't brought up in that way myself started with the chalkboard. But I would always say to myself no, I think the greatest resource in any classroom is the teacher.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Very good Coffee or tea at 11 o'clock break.
John Williams:Water, oh, very healthy. We're on a health kick at the moment, Ultan, so it'll have to be water. Christmas holidays or Easter holidays? Almost definitely the Easter holidays. Less fuss, oh man, less stress.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Would you rather have a week of WSE or a week of draft curriculum webinars?
John Williams:To be honest with you, I actually think the week of the WSE because I think, coming from being a principal, I think it gives you that focus on what's actually going on in the school and it gives you that time to review. And I know there's those external people coming in and watching everything that you're doing but sometimes they can be of help and have come up with a few suggestions, but I think it gives you that time to review.
John Williams:So, coming from a principal's mind, I would say probably a week of WSE. What's your favourite sport, John? Oh, I'd have to say it's probably rugby. Favourite band Favourite band would be U2.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:OK.
John Williams:Oh favourite school memories would be back in primary school years and years and years ago, on that bus to Croke Park for the coming of the month's gold finals and the smell of Tayto crisps. Before we all had healthy eating policies, exactly exactly. And then, of course, a few of them would throw up on the bus on the way back. But sure, look, that was par for the course.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:That's what plastic bags were made for! Tell me How and why did you become a teacher?
John Williams:I suppose I was very much influenced by my own primary school teacher my primary school days and I suppose he instilled in me the thought of the need for primary school teaching. There was never a history I know in a lot of families there was a history of primary school teaching in the family. There was never a history of primary school teaching in my family. In fact, when I was in secondary school and I actually declared it to our career guidance teacher, he actually had to go off and see where he'd actually do primary school teaching and get the information for me. But I think it influenced, as I said, my own primary school teacher and that's why you know, we always say that the phrase you know a love of children. But I suppose in some ways that that was always there but hoping that I could make a difference, I suppose, to children and I enjoyed, and I've always have enjoyed the profession.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Okay, you talked so there about the person who had an influence on you, and that leads me nicely to the next question. So who was that and in what way did he influence you?
John Williams:I suppose I presume I can name him. I went to an old boys school here in Dublin West, St Peter's in Green Hills They are no longer, it's amalgamated now with St Paul's and become Holy Spirit Junior and Senior School. Well, it was an old boys school of nearly over a thousand boys, but my primary school teacher in fifth and sixth was Nollaig Ferreter and he would have a very famous son, a historian at the present moment, but he would have had a great influence on me because he, I suppose, did things differently. He was very much interested in the individual child. I think he saw the needs of individuals. He was probably one of the first teachers who, I suppose you know, addressed children with special needs within the class.
John Williams:I know there was one boy in particular and I suppose in today's age he would have been diagnosed with mild autism, autism altogether, and he showed a great interest in the children and a great interest in that boy in the class and he did fun things with us and he did interesting things with us and it wasn't just straight out of the book. Everything wasn't straight out of the book. It was different, you know, and I suppose he never used corporal punishment on us which was, you know, corporal punishment was there in my time. I never remember anybody in the class getting hit or getting slapped or anything like that whereas there were other teachers in school who would have used it.
John Williams:So I suppose he had that caring nature, he had that interest in us and I suppose I in my own way admired him for that and that was the seed was planted. I think then there and when I was still there, when I went into secondary school and beyond.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:How did you become? because there's lots of different ways now, how did you become a primary school teacher?
John Williams:Well, as I said, I was in secondary school as I obviously still wanted to be a primary school teacher. So they had to go and find out where you know I was able to do a B Ed degree. So I went to St Pat's and I graduated there in 1982. So I did the three year B Ed course and I graduated then in 1982, got my first job. In those days you used to get your jobs in May and before you actually did your final exams. So let's say I was sort of bricking it when I went into the final exam, because if you failed any exam, bang went your degree and also bang went your job. So that's the route I took and then further studied later on.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Okay, so that influenced, I suppose, your initial steps in your career path, but you've done a lot of different things in education. Do you want to talk us through that? so 82, you left Pat's.
John Williams:Yeah, 82, i suppose 82. I started, as I said, my career in teaching in the Divine Word National School in Marley Grange in Rathfarnham, a growing school at the time and in 1988 I took a five year career break. I went to teach for two years in Kuwait in the Middle East. Wasn't really heard of at the time. I know there's a lot of teachers nowadays who head off to the Middle East. In 1988 was sort of a rare occurrence and I suppose I went a little bit of fear and interpretation but with great adventure because I suppose, being a Dub, I lived in Dublin all my life with my parents, went to school in Dublin, went to college in Dublin and I suppose this was my key to get out of home.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:And while there you had a bit of a run in with Saddam Hussein, did you?
John Williams:Yes, I did. On the 2nd of August 1990 any historians out there will know that Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. So basically, he bombed my apartment, he bombed my car and he bombed everything that I owned at the time. So, because my career break had been sanctioned for the following year, I couldn't return to my own school. So I went to London, which I thought was going to be only for a year, but in fact I ended up staying there for three years and while I was there, I was teaching in a small church of Ireland Church of England, sorry, church of England school right beside the oval cricket ground. And, yes, yeah, yeah, very English, very English. We used to get involved a lot with the with the cricket ground, and they used to do tours for us with kids of these.
John Williams:What the GAA would do in Ireland, they would do for us in the school in Kennington but anyway while I was there. Then I decided to do my master's education and luckily it was funded at the time by the local education authority, which was Lambeth. They totally funded the two years for my master's education. I did it in Goldsmiths College, which is part of the University of London, returned then to Ireland to my school
Ultan Mac Mathúna:John, if I was to ask you what's the standout difference between teachers in England at the time and teachers in Ireland?
John Williams:intense. It was very, very intense. There was an awful lot of paperwork involved And the day was much longer as well because there were school dinners involved. So you spent nearly an hour, an hour and a half, for school dinners And I suppose, on a funny note as well, you could actually go down to the pub for your dinner as a teacher. Believe it or not, there were teachers who used to go down to the pub for their dinner a couple of times. Yeah, exactly a couple of times. Yes, not a drop touched my lips, but no, it was very intense.
John Williams:There were a lot of social issues which I suppose hadn't hit here. Really, in a lot of schools in Ireland There was a lot of racism, I think, involved as well, and a lot of politics involved in schools there and for teachers on the ground there. There was an awful lot and I probably say this is an awful lot of paperwork involved, an awful lot of assessment. The year I was there, they had just introduced what they called the SAT And unfortunately I had year two, which was the first year of SAT, and a lot of testing and stuff involved. So it would be a long day. First of all teaching and as well as that, a lot of accountability there as well, so that would have been the big difference at the time.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:OK, then back to Ireland. Back to Ireland. You have years again in Marley Grange and then another jump, again, John, another jump.
John Williams:I came back to Ireland in 1993. And then around 1996, I had contact from the INTO. 95, 96, the INTO were getting involved in service education for teachers, producing summer courses, and we were producing a number of different summer courses. The first one, I think, was actually leadership, school planning, I think, school planning and education, and they were also developing one on classroom management and asked me would I become one of the designers for their classroom management course based on the masters that I had done in the UK?
John Williams:So there were about five that were brought in by the INTO, was the candidate for a number of days, a number of weeks, and we designed a classroom management course, then trained trainers who were mostly acting teachers and principals as well, and then that course was delivered as summer courses throughout Ireland by the INTO. There was very much foresight and insight there from a particular assistant general secretary within the INTO, Catherine Byrne. She saw the scope for development of teachers and for CPD of teachers And there was sort of, I think, money going around at the time and she decided that this was going to be plowed into CPD for teachers and it was very, very fruitful. That was 95, 96. And then in 96, I was seconded to the Department of Education's Walk Tall programme In 1998, was it, yeah, sorry, 1998. 1996 it became a pilot.
John Williams:Well, it became a pilot programme in 1996 for two years because there was a number of schools involved in the pilot phase And then there was a night course rolled out for the teachers in those schools.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Yes, and since the Walk Tall programme was, I suppose in answer to what was happening in Ireland at the time.
John Williams:There was a very much a drugs problem in Ireland at the time, particularly in inner-city areas. Heroin addiction was very high at the time And there were a lot of deaths around heroin And you would have you know you became very much involved in the news. There was always heroin overdose. Then crime went up in these particular areas all around the country. It wasn't just a Dublin issue, even though I suppose Dublin was very much highlighted as being the heroin capital of the country but it was all over in areas around the country And it was felt that a programme was needed. But the approach that was taken by the team at the time, which was a very insightful and a team with foresight as well, they decided not just to focus on the information, not just to focus on drugs education but to look at the sort of the social person, health education aspect of it. So looking at it from a skills point of view, values and attitudes and there as well by given you know information. But that went nationwide.
John Williams:I was seconded then to the Department of Education in 1998 on that programme And it went nationwide. Every school in the country was offered in service And every school I think about 99% of school took up the offer of in-service on the Walk Tall programme. There were lesson plans and set of lesson plans were provided for each teacher. Very, very useful, very practical, inclusive, active learning methodologies And that, as I said, went nationwide. I became national coordinator of that programme around 2001. And then in 2004, the Principalship of my own school, January, sorry, 2003, the Principalship of my own school came up and big decision had to be made, Do I continue on with what I'm doing with the department or do I throw my hat into the ring as principal? So, as you know, through the hat in the ring for principal.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:you started out in Marley Grange. The Divine Word, Marley Grange. Why did you want to become a principal, John?
John Williams:Well, i suppose you want to pursue your own career, I suppose. First of all. I suppose you know everybody has that idea and they might continue on their career in the same path, but go probably more into managerial and administration. I also felt that, you know, I wanted to in some ways make a difference. I had developed, I felt, a lot of skills and a lot of values and attitudes as well, and more like the book told me, a lot of knowledge as well that I wanted to bring back into my own school and wanted to use it, I suppose, to the betterment of education within the school itself, and I suppose that was probably one of the reasons that I did become principal. Then, were you nervous becoming principal? Oh, yes, I was. Yes, yes, it's a big jump.
John Williams:Had you moments of doubt? I think you always have moments of doubt, but at the end of the day you say to yourself no, you can do this and you know, you have the skills. Everybody doubts themselves, I think, no matter what new job or what new venture they want to take on. I don't think we'd be human unless we did doubt ourselves, but at the end of the day, you know yourself that it's the best thing for you and it hopefully is the best thing for the other people within the school as well, and I'd hope that you know if you if I mean I retired now two years and I think I hope if you did ask some of the teachers who were there in the school, or even pupils, or even parents, hopefully they would turn around and say, yes, you know, he made the difference, thank you.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:So back to making a difference. I suppose that doubt is a good thing. It keeps us all, I suppose, on track. A leader without any doubt can be very, very blind indeed.
John Williams:But you also have to be confident with it as well, you know. I mean, if you're doubting yourself all the time, I'd say you know there's an issue there somewhere. but you have to be confident Because, as you know, you know, principalship can be a very lonely job at times.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:What did you do to combat that loneliness at Principalship?
John Williams:I made networks. I, you know, I developed networks. I developed Informal or formal. Well, both, both, I suppose.
John Williams:I mean there were the formal networks there, like the academic and principal four groups and the INTO deputies and principals forms and all of those you know. But there were a lot of informal, you know. There were the principals in the area. I could pick the phone up to one in particular. We used to nearly phone each other every day at a quarter-to eight every morning, even if it was just hello, how are you, or you know, bouncing a few ideas off each other, or maybe something on your mind or maybe something on their mind, and you sort of say, well, listen, think about that. Or you know you'd give a bit of advice to each other, just talk about it. And that was very, very important. And, yeah, it is very, very important to have a network of people like that, because if you don't have a network there, if you don't have, you feel unsupported. I would have had a lot of. I mean all the teachers in the school, my deputy principals, all the other people in the school are very, very supportive.
John Williams:I have to say that, and there were people in school that I could bounce ideas off as well, particularly my deputy principal, but at the end of the day, as you know, the buck stops with you. Exactly, you are the one that has to make that decision at the end of the day.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:So look, what I'm going to ask you now is about, I suppose, the span of that time. So you kicked off in 1982 teaching, is that correct? That's correct, 1982. So what has been the greatest significant change for teachers in that time?
John Williams:There's been a lot. I suppose one of the biggest changes and I know it's thrown out there every time is technology. When I started, we had no technology. The biggest part peace technology we had in the school was an instrument called the Bantam Machine or the Gestetner. I have to tell people it was like a drum and you put a white spirit into this particular area of the drum, okay, and you had a carbon piece of paper with an ordinary flame piece of paper. One went on top of the other And you wrote your worksheet on one side of the paper. You attached it to this drum which had a handle, and you just kept turning the handle and you put the piece of paper through and that was your high tech photocopier.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:So you went from, we'll say, zero technology, now to interactive boards.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Are the children learning anything more? Has it improved the quality of education using this technology?
John Williams:I'll refer you back to what I said earlier on, because I think the teacher is the greatest resource in any classroom, and you have to also bear in mind that children are going through an era of constant change in technology as well.
John Williams:And they're the ones that are going to be going into jobs and going into scenarios and social outlets where technology is a part of the everyday working and everyday life. So they have to take part and they have to be involved in new technology and whatever It's the pace of change, I think, or the race that changes in technology has taken place, it's been the greatest factor in education.
John Williams:So, I would say look, we're talking about interactive whiteboards now, but in five years' time, interactive whiteboards could be devolved. There could be something else. We could have 3D robots or models or whatever.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:We might be back to blackboards and chalk, who knows.
John Williams:They're a divil on the clothes. The time to get the dust out of the clothes, you know. That's why we get the allowance the tax allowance. Well, somebody always said to me, you'd know a lazy teacher in those days, because if they were leaning against blackboards there was obviously the dust on their back.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:So, you you have a long running association with the Dublin West Education Centre. Could you tell me about?
John Williams:Okay, I suppose it was when I became principal. And well, no, sorry, it actually goes further back than that because having been involved in the Walk Tall programme, particularly National Co-Ordination of the Walk Tall programme, the Dublin West Education Centre managed that particular programme on behalf of the department. So I would have been, along with the directors of time and other individuals, our position on the steering committee of Walk Tall. So I suppose that would have been my involvement, initial involvement with Dublin West, especially when they were over in the old building and I know there are some members here in the staff who still remember that building over in Clondalkin and the prefabs that were over there And thankfully we got a new building a number of years later. And when I became principal, then I became involved actually with the management committee with Dublin West. So I sat as a member of that committee for a number of years and then I became deputy chairperson and then I've been chairperson of the management committee.
John Williams:I have been, I think, near on 10 years. I think now I'd have to look back at the minutes of meetings and stuff to say but yes, that's been my involvement, I suppose, with Dublin West. It's been great and I mean it's a great resource for the Dublin West area and a lot of work and a lot of effort has gone in from past directors and no more than yourself as current director into developing CPD and services for teachers in the Dublin West area, and it's the one thing I would always say to student teachers because I'm involved with student teachers at the moment and I would always say look, go into your education centre, even if it's just to have a look around and look at what services are there and look what they can provide for you, because we're a service to teachers and a service to children and parents in those particular areas.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:They can even go online now and have a look before they come in face-to-face as well, and to get advances in technology. I'm going to put it up to you now, John. You have a magic wand. If you could change one thing about the Irish education system, what would it be?
John Williams:If I could change something about the education system.
John Williams:I suppose I'm coming to the answer with this one, with my principles hat on, because I would actually say the bureaucracy involved in managing a school nowadays, particularly in the past number of years, that has gone beyond a joke.
John Williams:Now I admit I'm two years retired now and I do believe there's a slight improvement in that, but in its heyday, particularly during COVID, the amount of bureaucracy and the amount of circulars and the amount, particularly the timing, of those circulars was just beyond belief.
John Williams:I think if there were people in the private sector being treated the way that principals in particular were being treated, they wouldn't have stood for it. But we do and we know that care of the children in our schools is what's most important. So that's why we keep going with it. But I think if I was to change it would be the amount of bureaucracy and the amount of communications coming from the department. And the one thing I would also try to change as well is that departments within the department would communicate with each other, because there are certain instances during a school year when you are duplicating information the sentence department And you know you've already sent something in and obviously you then suddenly realise that one section of the department is not talking with the other section of the department, hence the reason for duplication, and it can be very frustrating.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Okay, your magic wand is in your hand again and you can change one thing to the practice of teaching. What would it be?
John Williams:Oh, what would it be? I would say and I know I'd be kicked for this one as well. I would actually say a less reliance on technology. I would say, you know, technology is good when it works, when it breaks down, and I see it so often sometimes, particularly back to student teachers again, this reliance on the interactive keyboard. It is the teacher who's the greatest resource, I would say again in the classroom. So I would say a less reliance on technology and more back to looking at active learning methodologies within lessons and within the class, because children will learn by doing. We all learn by doing. Particularly children will learn by doing And if they're actively involved in something. Now I know technology, yes, comes into it, part of it, part of them growing up now as well, but I think just the less reliance on it and the more social interaction on the ground, in particular lessons and in particular areas of the curriculum.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:And John, if you could make one change to education centres, what would it be?
John Williams:I suppose it's probably coming from a managerial end of things within the centre as well. It's less bureaucracy again, I hate to say it, and I mean, you know what I mean. Ultan, I mean the number of times we've had reviews and X, y and Z information has been looked for at a particular time and they want it there then.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Hours and energy lost on bureaucracy, is lost to creativity and provision for schools.
John Williams:It's like what we were talking about, being a principal, I mean you know yourself. I mean we're here as an education centre to provide the service to children in the area schools in the area. In a school you're principal, you're the leader of learning, but unfortunately, because of bureaucracy, the leading of learning goes out the door and in your own position, even as director of an education centre, even the care for the schools that are in the area goes out the door because bureaucracy and paperwork takes over. So if we had less of that we'd be fine. Down with that sort of thing, john. Down with that sort of thing, as Father Ted would always say Yes.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:John, i'll just finish up by asking you schools are planning for next year If you could give them three top tips for CPD, what would you recommend they attend?
John Williams:OK. Well, i think it is so, so important And I know it's the buzzword at the moment is well-being. I think we have to look after ourselves. We are no good to anybody if we're not looking after ourselves. We're no good to the children in our schools, we're no good to the teachers in our schools. So I think health and well-being is one area.
John Williams:I think leadership is a second one. I think there's leadership in us all, whether we are an SNA in a school, whether we are a teacher in a school or wherever we are in the school. There is leadership in us all And it's looking at those leadership qualities within us and how we can lead various teams, even as a teacher in school you don't have to be part of an in-school management team either But sort of those leadership qualities that are within us, that we can look at those and develop those. And probably the third one and unfortunately it's back to that team word again, that technology word, and it's my one fear, i think, at the present moment, because we're seeing all this AI stuff coming in and all of that And we just have to keep up to date with it because it will take over eventually And we already have seen chief executives of computer firms or whatever bowing down and resigning because they're fearful of what's going to happen with particularly AI.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:So I would say they're the three main ones. Well, John, thank you very much. It's been a real pleasure chatting to you. John, Although we chat on a regular basis, this is a bit more formal. It's been a real pleasure picking your brain.
Ultan Mac Mathúna:Tune in next week for another episode of Teachers Themselves. Don't forget to like and subscribe, leave us a review and share it with colleagues and friends. Your feedback informs the show. You can follow us across our social media channels Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook. Links are in the show notes. If you have any thoughts on today's episode or suggestions for future topics, email Zita here at zrobinson@ dwec. ie. Oh, and don't forget to book that CPD, dwec. ie. Thanks again and have a great week.
